After all, this is the guy who said, "Katrina was the best thing to happen to the New Orlean schools."

Imagine if a Republican administration had said that??

The Left will simply go ballistic...

Michale.....

How so??

With foreclosures at an all time high and rising faster, how can anyone claim that the Obama administration has actually done anything to help Main Street over Wall Street??

Fanny and Freddy get another 8 billion to cover their criminal activity so they can foreclose on millions of more houses...

What does Main Street get??

Lie after lie and lie. Platitude after platitude after platitude...

Where is the hope?? Where is the change??

Michale.....

Well, I'm going to stick to what I know something about ... banking! ... funnily enough. Talk about LOL! I guess when one’s retirement savings plan loses 40% of its value in record time, one is forced to find out what the heck is going on and why! :)

One might very well wonder what would have happened to the folks on Main Street if a lot of money hadn't been injected into those failing financial institutions and auto companies. The ramifications of a failure to inject this capital would have made the last year and half on Main Street look like the proverbial walk in the park with candy floss, in comparison.

And, it should also be noted that, thanks to the decisive actions and solid leadership of one Timothy Geithner, the rescue of these financial institutions, and the stabilization of the financial system as a whole, has been done at a much lower cost to the taxpayers than anyone could have predicted.

And so, when it comes to banking and stabilizing the financial system, the only thing one should be wondering about is why the American people don't get down on their hands and knees - en masse - and thank their lucky stars for Secretary Geithner! I mean that sincerely ... I'm not trying to be facetious here.

Finally, if one surmises that this administration has done next to nothing to help any of the people still trying to find a way to live in their houses and pay for their mortgages, then one would really be stretching reality, not to mention diminishing their own credibility.

So, that was both barrels, as they say. But, as you know, my bark is worse than my bite ... so to speak. :)

now i understand what you meant; thank you for clarifying. what i initially meant when i wrote that was that obama's education policy could potentially cast a different light on his other priorities, such as healthcare and banking. I did not mean to say there was unimpeachable evidence in those other arenas. however, if i may play devil's advocate for a moment, there is enough compromise and ambiguity there to at least make one wonder whether the education policy is an outlier or part of the larger pattern.

On healthcare, for example, it's not exactly a stretch to think that mandating the purchase of health coverage when there's no public option is a gift to big healthcare corporations. And even on banking, one might for example wonder why the president gave lots of money right away to the banks that were foreclosing on people's houses, but has still done next to nothing to help any of the people still trying to find a way to live in the houses and pay their mortgages.

just sayin'...

Am I not making myself clear?

I am NOT talking about education policy or the teachers. As I have said, I know NOTHING about that.

Here is the pertinent passage from your original comment that I have been referring to:

furthermore, her opinion on education has impacted her views on health-care and banking as well. she sees him not as the pragmatist she voted for, but as a privatizing, union-busting, tool of the mega-corporations. she says she may stay home or vote independent in 2012.

You see, it is your mother's views on the Obama administration as related to healthcare and, specifically, banking (something I know a fair amount about with respect to how this administration has acted to stabilize the financial system) that I have characterized as wholly inaccurate and misguided in the extreme.

I hope that clears everything up!

Your mother made specific comments, if we are to believe what you said she said, about Obama - and his administration by implication - that are wholly unsubstantiated and utterly false.

much as i wish that were the case, it is not. In post 37, I gave three concrete examples to "substantiate" why those perceptions exist. in prior posts i gave links to explanations of each.

concrete example #1 - supported mass firings of teachers in a rhode island labor dispute.

concrete example #2 - Based federal funding on criteria that encourage states to expand bush-era standardized testing of students, then use it as a basis for teacher pay, hiring and firing.

concrete example #3 - Based federal funding on an increase in privatization of public schools.

As I mentioned above, states including Florida and Colorado have already begun to implement these policies. These are not just perceptions, they are facts. If there were any rational way to dispute these facts, as a long-time supporter of the president i would already have done so. since my own belief is that obama's heart is in the right place, i can only conclude that he doesn't know his arse from his elbow when it comes to public education.

Michale,
So these teachers were fired en-masse, not because of any incompetence, but rather because they held firm in a contract dispute??

correctamundo. and the president supported the district for doing so, since it was a "failing school."

So, if I understand you correctly, Obama's educational policies state, among other things, that if students don't do well in high-power testings, that the teachers are fired?? Even though it's possible (even likely) that the teachers' actions have nothing to do with the failure??

Is that an accurate assessment??

Essentially, yes. I can't surmise as to whether that was how the policy was intended to function, but that is how the states are interpreting it, and the president hasn't indicated otherwise.

Anyone at all???

Michale.....

http://gopleader.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=184989

So, who is actually supporting Wall Street over Main Street????

It certainly is not JUST the Republicans...

Michale.....

I don't know enough about Obama's education policy and how it affects teachers to comment on any of that.

but you just did!

Actually, I most certainly did not comment on Obama's education policy and how it affects teachers. You might want to take another look at comments #8 and #34 for what I did say. Which had nothing to do with teachers or Obama's education policy.

I am also not engaged in blanket denials. Your mother made specific comments, if we are to believe what you said she said, about Obama - and his administration by implication - that are wholly unsubstantiated and utterly false. Which I simply pointed out.

And, that's all I'm gonna say about that! :)

the gist of the criticism is, secretary duncan's policy explicitly encourages the closing of schools labeled "failing," and the wholesale firing of teachers. this might sound like common sense, but when it actually happened in rhode island, it was in direct response to difficult union negotiations, not because the school's students weren't doing well, and certainly not because the teachers weren't teaching. in practice, this amounts to union-busting, and the president vocally supported it.

So these teachers were fired en-masse, not because of any incompetence, but rather because they held firm in a contract dispute??

It's amazing that Labor Unions still support Obama...

the third scary thing that has happened in direct response to duncan's policy is that many states, including florida and colorado, have proposed legislation mandating the expanded the use of high-stakes standardized testing to measure the "merit" of teachers or schools, and to base the hiring and firing of teachers upon these scores. this was a disaster under bush, and is doubly so under obama, because in practice it blames teachers for a host of problems over which they have no control. it also effectively mandates a "test-prep" curriculum, reducing the time available for teachers to do any real teaching.

So, if I understand you correctly, Obama's educational policies state, among other things, that if students don't do well in high-power testings, that the teachers are fired?? Even though it's possible (even likely) that the teachers' actions have nothing to do with the failure??

Is that an accurate assessment??

If so, that really stinks and I can see why your mother has such a problem with the administration.

This information, coupled with the bizarre speech that Obama gave at a commencement a couple days ago seems to support the belief that Obama is trying to create a dependent society...

Can't say it surprises me..

Michale....

but you just did!

the gist of the criticism is, secretary duncan's policy explicitly encourages the closing of schools labeled "failing," and the wholesale firing of teachers. this might sound like common sense, but when it actually happened in rhode island, it was in direct response to difficult union negotiations, not because the school's students weren't doing well, and certainly not because the teachers weren't teaching. in practice, this amounts to union-busting, and the president vocally supported it.

another part of the policy that may sound good in theory but could pose a real problem is the expansion of for-profit charter schools, and changing "failing" public schools to charter schools. i understand that some shake-ups may be needed, but the vast majority of research shows that charter schools on average don't teach any better than public schools, and have fewer labor protections. operating on a large scale, this amounts to both privatizing (this part should be self-evident) and a weakening of teacher unions, who have no standing to negotiate labor contracts for charter schools.

the third scary thing that has happened in direct response to duncan's policy is that many states, including florida and colorado, have proposed legislation mandating the expanded the use of high-stakes standardized testing to measure the "merit" of teachers or schools, and to base the hiring and firing of teachers upon these scores. this was a disaster under bush, and is doubly so under obama, because in practice it blames teachers for a host of problems over which they have no control. it also effectively mandates a "test-prep" curriculum, reducing the time available for teachers to do any real teaching.

But, I do know enough about the Obama-Biden administration

is there such a thing as an ad-hominem defense? he's a good person so he must be right? maybe you don't know enough about education, and maybe the president doesn't either. i may not agree with my mother's overall assessment, but she has reasoned support for her position on education policy. teachers and teacher unions were big supporters of obama's election, and now they feel betrayed. you can address this issue substantively, but a blanket denial doesn't work without facts to back it up.

Back to the counter-productive nature of the new law ... that has more to do with how the citizens of Arizona react to it. We'll have to see how it all shakes out.

So far, in Arizona, it's running 4-1 in favor of the new law. Nationwide, it's 3-1..

I just find it funny that those can sit on the sidelines and castigate AZ when they are living in BooDunk, South Dakota or New York City or BumFuq, Egypt..

It's Arizona's right to do what Arizona feels is necessary to protect Arizona citizens.. And NO ONE who doesn't live in Arizona has the right to condemn Arizona for doing it's duty...

LD,

I find your faith in LE amazing.

That's because I have Been There and Done That.

The law is an open invitation to discriminate.

Any enforcement action is an "open invitation" to discriminate.... It's the nature of the beast. All we can do is put the best people we can in the job and hope they do the right thing all the time..

No the law does not say "you will discriminate,"

Exactly my point. You were claiming that the law itself is discriminatory when in actuality, it MIGHT lead to discrimination if enforced improperly.

So, you don't have a problem with the law, you have a problem with how it MIGHT be enforced... How it COULD be misused or misapplied..

Your more concerned with the WHAT IF than with the WHAT IS...

Is it a reasonable concern?

Maybe...

Only time will tell..

But, short of appeasement and complete surrender of our southern border, I don't see any alternative. And, as I told Liz above, no one has the right to condemn Arizona unless they live in Arizona and have experienced first hand the terror and horror of brutal murders, horrific rapes and other crimes committed by illegal aliens...

The fact that AZ legislators are bigots

Assumes facts not in evidence.

There is nothing in that law that places any restraints on LE while its wording deliberately removes all restraint.

Can you point to specific examples??

LE can initiate a lawful contact with anyone they choose at any time simply by asking to see identification.

But as you so clearly stated, they must have a good reason to do so.. Simply because they see a hot blonde and want to know her name is not sufficient probable cause to seek identification..

So, asking someone for identification because they are black or hispanic is NOT "lawful contact".. Ergo, it would be a violation of the law.

Once again I must point out. The law, AS IT IS WRITTEN is perfectly fair and constitutional.

If it's not followed, then that can (and I am sure WILL) be addressed..

But the law itself is not the problem.

Your disingenuous insistence that a law targeting illegal Mexican immigration will not disproportionately affect Hispanic-Americans is beneath you.

Once again, assumes facts not in evidence..

The AZ Law is targeting one group and one group only.

ILLEGAL ALIENS

The fact that the majority of ILLEGAL ALIENS in Arizona are hispanic is completely irrelevant and immaterial to the law..

The law works in ANY state, simply by virtue of the fact that it is completely non-racial, non-ethnic and non-discriminatory.

The ONLY group targeted are ILLEGAL ALIENS.... Whether they be hispanic, black, white or whatever...

I too have read the bill, difference is I read it without prejudice.

With respect, your prejudice is not only obvious, it's admitted. I believe you have said on many occasions how you are prejudiced against Republicans.. I think we can add Law Enforcement to that list as well.. :D

You read the law with the assumption that it will be ignored or violated by Law Enforcement.

If you were to read it with a truly objective eye, you would see that nothing IN THE LAW ITSELF is discriminatory against ANY group, save one.

ILLEGAL ALIENS.

I don't really care what AZ intends, I'm not interested in making excuses for them, I'm talking about what they have done.

And all that Arizona has done is to try and make things safer for it's LEGAL citizens. Which is not only Arizona's RIGHT, it is Arizona's DUTY to do...

Will it work??

Time will tell...

But the legality of what Arizona has done is indisputable. The Constitutionality of what Arizona has done is also indisputable..

Michale.....

I find your faith in LE amazing. The law is an open invitation to discriminate. No the law does not say "you will discriminate," only a few affirmative action laws have been able to get away with that since the Civil War.

The fact that AZ legislators are bigots not morons doesn't mean the intent isn't discriminatory. There is nothing in that law that places any restraints on LE while its wording deliberately removes all restraint.

LE can initiate a lawful contact with anyone they choose at any time simply by asking to see identification. You have repeatedly refused to address the obvious fact that it allows citizens to be arrested and turned over to ICE for deportation at LE discretion unless they prove their innocence.

Your disingenuous insistence that a law targeting illegal Mexican immigration will not disproportionately affect Hispanic-Americans is beneath you. Your acceptance of laws so broad and vague that LE has unfettered discretion with the burden of proof placed wholly on the "suspect" is yet another example of your disdain for the rule of law. And if you think targeting a minority is an acceptable way to send a message to Washington I can only conclude you have equal disdain for democracy. We have elections, representatives and senators, the democratic process does not include extortion; "give me what I want or I'll kill the Hispanics?"

I too have read the bill, difference is I read it without prejudice. I don't really care what AZ intends, I'm not interested in making excuses for them, I'm talking about what they have done. You may be comfortable with a police state due to your boundless faith in the powers that be to do no wrong; me, I put my faith in the law not wishful thinking.

The law has never proven much protection but wishful thinking has never proven any protection.

Yeah, I read your links. Sorry I didn't respond.

I don't know enough about Obama's education policy and how it affects teachers to comment on any of that.

But, I do know enough about the Obama-Biden administration (with emphasis on Biden) to know that resorting to descriptions of President Obama - and, by implication, Vice President Biden - as "a privitizing, union-busting, tool of the mega-corporations" is misguided in the extreme. And, that's being very polite.

And, I'm not a big fan of media links as I find the majority of them to be wholly unreliable. I certainly don't use them to understand a subject I know little about.

in case you didn't read my earlier response, i have yet another link for you:

http://www.correntewire.com/obamas_great_big_union_busting_education_policy_leads_mass_firings_ri

misguided or not, it's not a good sign for 2012.

How so? You mean we have to provide explanations with cogent type arguments? Who knew?

But, you do make a good point about the new Arizona law being a kind of catalyst - perhaps - in terms of getting the new administration to press on with immigration reform. Good luck to them with that, by the way.

Back to the counter-productive nature of the new law ... that has more to do with how the citizens of Arizona react to it. We'll have to see how it all shakes out.

Kudos...

And, I don't think this new law is necessary,

But you don't live in Arizona... :D

nor will it be very effective.

That depends...

If the intent was to embarrass the Federal Government into getting off their political oriented asses and pay attention to the issue, then I would say it's been very effective...

Time will tell how effective it is in actually stemming the tide of illegal aliens..

But it HAS been effective in showing the incompetence of the Obama Administration..

In fact, when all is said and done, this new law will undoubtedly be very counterproductive and make enforcement of immigration laws more difficult.

How so???

Michale......

That's OK - it's easier to see that way, anyway. :)

Yes ... I did read the whole thing.

And, I don't think this new law is necessary, nor will it be very effective. In fact, when all is said and done, this new law will undoubtedly be very counterproductive and make enforcement of immigration laws more difficult. Which is why you should be strongly opposed to it.

Apologies...

Michale.....

It DOES say so...

20 B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE
25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).

Read for yourself..

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

Do you see ANYWHERE in the entirety of the law that singles out any racial or ethnic group??

No, you do not...

And I would have been more than content to grab a bowl of popcorn sit back and enjoy the spectacle of retired eighty-year-old "patriots" being turned over to ICE for processing and deportation because they forgot their wallets that mourning.

Once again, you fail to read the text of the law..

A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON.

If you have an 80yr old "patriot" who happened to forget their wallet that morning, then any LEO would consider a "reasonable" effort to be the issuing of a PC citation...

Like CW is found of saying, "I'm surprised I have to explain this stuff.."

While its quite true they hypothetically might not be racist or unconstitutional a hundred years of history says they will be. And apparently unlike some, I live on planet Earth.

The problem you have with this AZ law is not what is says or not what it does. This is obvious by the fact that you haven't read the law..

Your problem appears to be what MIGHT happen, what COULD happen.

You claim that it's "hypothetically" not racist, but actually the opposite is true.

Your argument is that it is "hypothetically" racist...

You simply ignore the text of the law and concentrate on the APPEARANCES of the law...

If you were to actually read the law, you would see that there is absolutely nothing unconstitutional about it...

The text of the law reads as simple as a thousand other laws on the books that have passed constitutional muster...

Please point to ANY part of the law, USING THE TEXT OF THE LAW, that you believe is unconstitutional..

THAT will settle this debate quicker than anything because you won't be able to find anything..

As for securing the border before addressing any other immigration strategy--good luck with that. We've been trying it since at least Reagan--But I've already given my opinion of those who insist that only the strategies that have never worked before can be used--until they do work.

Appeasement and surrender never solve any problem. It simply creates larger problems...

If one were to ignore political and politically correct issues, securing the border is quite easy to accomplish...

A leader only has to have the balls to do the right thing and enforce the laws....

Apparently President Obama doesn't have the balls..

Michale.....

If, however, AZ intended for police to demand proof of citizenship of everyone involved in every lawful encounter with police I've no doubt their law would have said so.

And I would have been more than content to grab a bowl of popcorn sit back and enjoy the spectacle of retired eighty-year-old "patriots" being turned over to ICE for processing and deportation because they forgot their wallets that mourning.

It still wouldn't be remotely constitutional but at least it would no longer be racist. Of course, that's never gonna happen.

As for your absurd claims that somehow only illegals are affected...If the police have probable cause that someone is illegal they have the authority to act.--All of them. Not just AZ police. And if they know they are legal aliens they likewise have the authority, under current law, to demand to see green cards, though why would they need to?

The only reason the AZ law exists is to provide a pretext for officers to demand that people they do not have probable cause to believe have committed a crime prove that they haven't committed a crime. And that is unconstitutional. Because it requires that you prove you are innocent without probable cause to believe you're guilty, that failing to do so will result in your arrest without probable cause and because it will be directed almost exclusively at Hispanics and not eighty-year-old white retirees.

You are making the same arguments used to "justify" Jim Crow laws for a century. While its quite true they hypothetically might not be racist or unconstitutional a hundred years of history says they will be. And apparently unlike some, I live on planet Earth.

As for securing the border before addressing any other immigration strategy--good luck with that. We've been trying it since at least Reagan--But I've already given my opinion of those who insist that only the strategies that have never worked before can be used--until they do work.

Every phrase of "the AZ" SHOULD read "the AZ law"..

Sometimes my fingers don't listen to my brain...

MIchale....

That's a good idea...

But nothing will work unless the border is secured first..

The problem is that the Left doesn't want to do the PROPER things in the proper order. They want to immediately skip to giving away unearned entitlements

I don't have a problem with what you propose. But the border must be secured first..

Conservatives are nothing if not determined to prove Einstein's definition of insanity. No matter how often or for how long their strategies fail they will accept no other approach. Insistent that the same failed strategies be employed until they work.

The same could be said for Liberals as well. Capitulation and surrender never work... Never has, never will...

Well, since they never have, and since you think we have a right to do whatever it takes, legal or not, to ensure our own security, what makes you think some poor Mexican doesn't have the right, legal or not, to do whatever he has to to ensure his family's security?

The difference is, the law IS legal.. That has already been established.

The "poor" Mexican's rights ends where the US's nose begins...

If that "poor" Mexican wants to ensure his family's security, let him or her do it in their own country..

The Left decries the US's role as the world's policeman, yet the Left expects the US to take care of every Tom, Dick or Harry that demands entitlements...

I suggest, however, that our authoritarian strategies never will work. Ideology is not going to trump reality and necessity matter how many times, or how hard, we try. If we want to solve our problems we need to start looking for, and implementing, solutions, not take everything off the table except the same failed strategies that have never worked before--because they ain't gonna work this time either, no matter what authoritarian fantasies conservatives may cherish.

If history has shown ANYTHING, it is that appeasement does not work either...

If the constitution is "unwieldy" it can be amended.
Ignoring the law as "unwieldy" and insisting that unconstitutional statutes are the law does not make them the law.

Sounds like a good argument against legalization of drugs.. :D

But, in the case of the AZ law, you have yet to come up with any facts regarding it being unconstitutional..

If you are driving a vehicle, law enforcement has the right to ask for your drivers license. Such a request is NOT unconstitutional. If said officer suspects you of being drunk, he has the right to ask you to perform a FST. Such a request is NOT unconstitutional. It's called 'implied consent' and has been upheld in MANY courts.

If you are in this country and you are not a citizen, then law enforcement in AZ now has the right to ask you to produce documentation stating you are in this country legally..

It's the law that non-citizens must carry such documentation with them at all times..

I honestly fail to see what all the hysteria is about..

It has nothing to with race or ethnicity.. It has EVERYTHING to do with simply enforcing the law.

And while legal aliens are required to have papers citizens are not. And since their are about ten times as many Hispanic citizens in AZ than immigrants, legal or not, about ten of every eleven such demands would be unconstitutional, and illegal, on that alone.

Ahhh, I see your argument now...

Your argument is, because the AZ law gives the IMPRESSION of being racist, by virtue of the predominantly Hispanic population, then that means the law is unconstitutional..

Using your reasoning, law enforcement cannot make drug arrests in slum areas because it would give the IMPRESSION of being racist, by virtue of the predominantly black population.

Your argument might have had some merit, except for one small fact. ALL non-citizens are
treated identically under the law whether they be hispanic, black, white, red, green or purple...

An AZ LEO makes a traffic stop on a carload of hispanics or black people and asks if they are US citizens. If they are not, then said LEO asks if they have legal immigrant documentation..

An AZ LEO makes a traffic stop on a carload of blond haired blue eyed girls and asks if they are US citizens. If they are not, then said LEO asks if they have legal immigrant documentation..

An AZ LEO makes a traffic stop on a carload of spoonheaded Cardassians and asks if they are US citizens. If they are not, then said LEO asks if they have legal immigrant documentation..

THIS is how the law works...

The fact that there is a predominantly hispanic community is immaterial and totally irrelevant to the creation and enforcement of the law.

Don't care how many times you repeat it or how many ways you try to justify it unconstitutional "laws" are illegal, and no one is required to be subjected to them.

And, as we have established, there is nothing un-constitutional about the AZ law.

The ONLY thing that you have brought up to support your claim is that the AZ could, I repeat, COULD give the APPEARANCE of being racist and is, therefore, unconstitutional..

Appearances are irrelevant and immaterial. It's the law that matters.

And there is NOTHING in the AZ anti-illegal-immigration law that singles out hispanics, blacks, whites, indians, vulcans or klingons..

The ONLY group that is singled out are non-US citizens that are in this country illegally.

PERIOD..

Anything else is just liberal spin...

Michale.....

If the constitution is "unwieldy" it can be amended.
Ignoring the law as "unwieldy" and insisting that unconstitutional statutes are the law does not make them the law.

And The constitution doesn't say the police cannot take action before a grand jury indictment, it says the police cannot take action without probable cause and must then obtain an indictments.

In other words it prohibits exactly the kind of fishing expeditions you champion. And jailing people who do not provide evidence of their innocence to your satisfaction is not inquiring about their citizenship, its presuming guilt and non-citizenship unless they can prove otherwise.

And while legal aliens are required to have papers citizens are not. And since their are about ten times as many Hispanic citizens in AZ than immigrants, legal or not, about ten of every eleven such demands would be unconstitutional, and illegal, on that alone.

Don't care how many times you repeat it or how many ways you try to justify it unconstitutional "laws" are illegal, and no one is required to be subjected to them.

Lest you actually believe there is nothing else that could be done...

How about government actually creating jobs for Hispanics on the border? If there were jobs there for them they'd need go no further and they'd help defend our border to ensure they didn't lose those jobs. Instead of throwing away billions building and patrolling a fence we could turn a profit and produce things we need. We could use those profits to pay for education, medical care, social security, reducing business costs and improving the labor pool creating more jobs and improving the economy for everyone...

But, I know--NO AMNESTY--yada yada yada.

And legalizing--and taxing--drugs so there's no profit in drug crime?!

Conservatives are nothing if not determined to prove Einstein's definition of insanity. No matter how often or for how long their strategies fail they will accept no other approach. Insistent that the same failed strategies be employed until they work.

Well, since they never have, and since you think we have a right to do whatever it takes, legal or not, to ensure our own security, what makes you think some poor Mexican doesn't have the right, legal or not, to do whatever he has to to ensure his family's security?

I suggest, however, that our authoritarian strategies never will work. Ideology is not going to trump reality and necessity matter how many times, or how hard, we try. If we want to solve our problems we need to start looking for, and implementing, solutions, not take everything off the table except the same failed strategies that have never worked before--because they ain't gonna work this time either, no matter what authoritarian fantasies conservatives may cherish.

This is unwieldy to the point of being absurd. Enforcing this standard on police means that they would never be able to STOP any crime in progress..

Can you picture the ludicrous scenario??

Cops respond to a domestic but, before they can enter the residence, they have to wait for a Grand Jury to convene and issue a review of all possible charges..

Ridiculous...

All of which makes it crystal clear that under the constitution the government must prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt; it is not the responsibility of the accused to prove their innocence.

Once arrested, the government WILL prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

What you seem to be saying is that the government must prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt BEFORE they can even investigate.

That is, once again, ridiculous..

I remind you that the constitution is the highest law in the land. That all other governmental authority flows from the constitution. That laws which violate the constitution are therefor invalid and illegal.

And inquiring as to whether or not a citizen or non-citizen is obeying the law is NOT a violation of the US Constitution.

If you insist on using force to persecute a minority stop the dishonest breast-beating about it being the law. No one is fooled.

Once again, I have to ask..

How is enforcing the law "persecuting" a minority??

If, in the course of "lawful contact", a Caucasian person can and will be asked if they are a citizen. If they are not, then they will be asked if they have immigration papers that prove they are in this country legally. If they don't have said papers, then they will be arrested.

How is this persecution of a minority???

The new AZ law is color-blind, AS IT SHOULD BE...

Michale.....

"Lawful contact" is not probable cause. Asking a police officer for directions is a "lawful contact."

The constitution is clear that the government may not deprive anyone of their liberty without probable cause to presume they have committed an offense against the law. It goes even further to stipulate that civilian review of all charges, in the form of grand juries, is required before even the mandatory trial before a jury of peers.

All of which makes it crystal clear that under the constitution the government must prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt; it is not the responsibility of the accused to prove their innocence.

And, for the record, the constitution is a constraint on federal power. It says nothing about being applicable only to citizens. It defines what the government may and may not do?to anyone.

I remind you that the constitution is the highest law in the land. That all other governmental authority flows from the constitution. That laws which violate the constitution are therefor invalid and illegal.

I am demanding that the government do their job and enforce the law. You are the one insisting on "political correctness," having the government ignore the law to do what white border-residents want instead.

If the government were doing its job and obeying the law the ones you want enforced wouldn't exist, we might be enforcing more reasonable ones and immigrants might be much more willing to comply with them. But the fact that they find our "do as I say, not as I do" hypocritical arrogance unpersuasive should surprise no one.

If you insist on using force to persecute a minority stop the dishonest breast-beating about it being the law. No one is fooled.

The AZ law specifically states that "lawful contact" with a subject is sufficient grounds to require proof of citizenship or legal right to be in the US.

What part of the US Constitution forbids such inquiries??

If, in the course of "LAWFUL CONTACT", it is determined that the subject is in possession of a CCW, then it is NOT unconstitutional to ask if said subject is armed.

How is this any different??

Non US Citizens are REQUIRED by law to carry proof of legality with them at all times..

Further, why is it Constitutional for the FEDERAL Government to inquire as to legal status, but it is NOT Constitutional for the STATE Government to inquire same??

Finally, ALL of this would not be necessary if the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT would forgo political correctness and agendas and simply DO THEIR JOB in enforcing the law...

I asked before and, not so surprisingly, no one had an answer.

Due to lack of balls by the Federal Government, what would you have State Governments do?? Just let their citizens be brutally murdered and victimized and have their economy totally decimated by illegals???

Michale.....

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/education/07educ.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/diane-ravitch/first-lets-fire-all-the-t_b_483074.html

many of us here in florida have been horrified by the senate bill on teacher retention, which thankfully was vetoed. it would be easy to blame it all on partisanship in the republican-controlled state legislature, but ultimately it came about because it fit with the federal rewards being offered under the obama-duncan policy.

as i stated, i'm a bit more willing to extend the president the benefit of the doubt than is my mom, but the fact of the matter is that there has been a nationwide spate of teacher firings and anti-teacher legislation, many directly tied to federal policy. in practice, states are promoting even more high-stakes standardized testing than the bush administration, more for-profit charter schools, and more discrimination against low SES school districts, all directly tied to the policies of duncan and obama.

Here are the main points of the president's policies, and criticisms of them:

http://usliberals.about.com/od/education/a/RaceToTheTop.htm

here is a synopsis from firedoglake of obama's reaction to the rhode island district that fired the entire school:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/01/AR2010030103560.html

and another:

http://workinprogress.firedoglake.com/2010/03/03/obama-applauds-mass-firing-of-teachers-just-like-when-he-applauded-the-mass-firing-of-banksters-oh-wait/

what the president and secretary duncan have done on education have not worked out very well so far, and his words on the subject are at least a cause for concern. i am reserving judgment until the events play out a little more, but i have to tell you that it's looking more and more like we have been the misguided ones.

But you seem to think its just fine to ignore the law when it gives you the result you want while loudly lamenting others ignoring the law when just because it serves their interests. Gross hypocrisy, however, does not instill either a moral or legal authority.

When this nation actually starts observing the rule of law it will have a right to demand that everyone else do so.

hehehehehehehe

Michale.....

Oh, I'm sure they do. :)

I would agree with this sentiment..

But the problem is, it might be the mis-guided ones who think OTHERS are the mis-guided ones..

Food for thought, no?? :D

Michale....

If they were here illegally, Damn Skippy!!!

Why is it that people believe that it's perfectly OK to disobey the law if you are an immigrant???

And where does such a belief end??

"Oh, he's an illegal immigrant. It's perfectly OK that he stole a car..."

"Oh, she's an illegal immigrant. No big deal she is dealing drugs.."

What part of ***ILLEGAL*** immigrant do people not understand???

If people are not in this country legally, they are STEALING from all legal residents of this country...

It's THAT simple...

Tell ya what.. Let's make it real simple for people..

For those of you who believe that Arizona's law is "mis-guided" why don't ya'all sign up to pay directly for the room, board and medical expenses of a hundred illegal immigrants, all at your own expense...

Let's see how much ya'all would would support illegal immigration then, eh??

I bet not many of you would??

So, why would ya'all support illegal immigrants otherwise???

Michale.....

The number of misguided voters - anywhere in the world - knows no limits.

Another case of buyer's remorse with regards to Obama... You can bet that for everyone of me or NYPoet's mom, there are millions of others who feel the same....

This is the exact feeling that will keep Democrats home in droves this mid-term election...

When you have millions of people claiming Obama has failed them, that is more than just "mis-guided"...

When you have millions of Democrats planning on staying home this election, that is more than just "mis-guided"...

Perhaps those who believe that Obama is actually being an effective leader are the ones that are "mis-guided", eh???

Perhaps the See No Evil, Hear No Evil, Speak No Evil mentality is actually what is "mis-guided"...

Just mentioning the possibility...

Michale.....

If your mom truely sees Obama as "a privitizing, union-busting, tool of the mega-corporations", then I must say that she is obviously, and sadly, misguided.

Could you be a little more specific about why your mom feels that "race to the top" is such a betrayal of American teachers?

i called my mom today for mother's day, and in-between words of affection I got a stinging earful about "race to the top" under obama and education secretary duncan. a fairly well-respected researcher and professor in second language education, my mom considers herself a pragmatic liberal democrat. although she's firmly on the left, she is a party adherent, and frequently supports compromise when it comes to policy decisions, so in theory she should be among the strongest segments of obama's base. this is why it shocked me to hear her overall opinion on the president. she's not just disappointed, she's outraged. she sees "race to the top" as a betrayal of our country's teachers, and says we might have even been better off under mccain. considering the teacher firings and state legislation that has resulted from "race to the top," she might be right, but for anyone who knows my mom's politics, that's still a pretty shocking thing to hear.

furthermore, her opinion on education has impacted her views on health-care and banking as well. she sees him not as the pragmatist she voted for, but as a privatizing, union-busting, tool of the mega-corporations. she says she may stay home or vote independent in 2012. if such a firmly partisan member the democratic base sees the president this way, perhaps all those wacky tea-baggers really are just the tip of the iceberg.

Happy Mothers' Day!
~joshua

I couldn't agree with you more about the 'too-big-to-fail amendment by Brown-Kaufman.

The problem here has much less to do with size than with risky behavior. For examply, Canada has a disproportionate number (4, I believe) of the worlds 10 biggest banks and none of our banks failed during this financial crisis - better regulation and less risky behavior.

I’ve been thinking about the whole concept of "too-big-to-fail" and how it should go the way of the dinosaur.

The more apt phrase should be ... "couldn’t possibly be too big to fail!" Conventional wisdom seems to be that "too big to fail" is primarily a function of the size of financial institutions.

But, I think what is really needed here are new rules of the road and a muscular regulatory regime that would prevent financial institutions - no matter how big they are - from engaging in behavior deemed too risky for the stability of the system as a whole and an effective resolution authority that would give government the proper tools to wind down failing institutions - no matter how big they are - in an orderly manner and simply allow them to fail.

We can be thankful that Secretary Geithner is on top of all this and intimately understands what will be necessary to prevent a similar crisis from ever happening again and to mitigate other future crises, limiting the damage to the system as a whole and the cost to the taxpayers.

That would seem to me to be a contradiction.

But your point is taken and well made, as usual..

Michale.....

Considering the attitude of the FBI in the '60s, had there been a no-fly list Dr. M. L. King would definitely have been on it, as would any of the other "domestic terrorists" who supported civil rights.

Aside from the not insignificant fact that in the history of U.S. it has never shown that it could be trusted to determine who should be denied their rights in the interests of "security." While Salem witch hunts, native American genocide, Jim Crow, Japanese-American internments, and "The Red Scare," to name a few, give ample historical evidence that it cannot.

I'd also suggest you ponder the significance of the fact that congress has ignored the constitution so often recently that they no longer consider constitutional amendments necessary to rewrite the thing.

And Chris,

Just how would breaking up the "too big to fail" banks have changed anything when every financial institution was engaged in the same behavior, large and small? All breaking them up would have accomplished is to make it impossible to restore some semblance of confidence by bailing out a handful of them.

What Brown-Kaufman really does is typical of Washington. It does nothing to address the problem while firmly promoting a public misconception that congress and government weren't responsible.

The problem wasn't that the banks were too big to fail it was that the government at the insistence of congress and the president let securities fraud, accounting fraud and lending fraud go uninvestigated, unregulated, unreported and unpunished.

The failure of Brown-Kaufman to successfully ignore the constitution, yet again, to seize control of privately held assets and sell them without even of hint of criminality and due process as justification is hardly worthy of condemnation.

Doesn't anyone get it? None of us have any rights. Because the constitution is no longer viewed by congress or the courts as even a suggestion of how federal government should behave much less a constraint on federal power.

And you think this is the most impressive thing done this week?!

The bill wouldn't apply retro-actively..

The Irish-Americans are safe...

Hopefully it will make Americans in the here and now a little more careful about who they associate with or send money to.

But, CW, it does add an interesting correlation to your "torturing terrorists" issue.. :D

Michale.....

"Mr President, that is not ENTIRELY accurate."
-Secretary Nimzicki, INDEPENDENCE DAY

Actually, the law that is proposing is that American citizenship be stripped away from any American who associates with known terrorist groups.

I actually DO have a problem with this, but not the one you think.. And there is ample precedence to support that the law is perfectly constitutional.

If an American citizen joins the military of a country that is at war or in hostilities with the United States than said American citizen automagically renounces their American citizenship.

My problem with Leiberman's idea is that it would prevent the US from charging the scumbag with treason and then taking them out and shooting them...

without benefit of due process, or any of that namby-pamby "rule of law" nonsense (otherwise known as "The U.S. Constitution").

Oh come on.. The Democrats have trampled on the US Constitution to high heaven and back with their CrapCare crap... Like Congressional Democrats really care about the US Constitution...

Coddling terrorists and treating them like dime-store criminals is NOT the way to safeguard this country..

"When President Obama took office, we were losing three-quarters of a million jobs every single month. Last month, the American economy added over two hundred thousand jobs.

Yet unemployment has risen from 9.7% to 9.9%. And, according to all the Kings Men, this is going to be the "new norm"...

So much for Obama's claim that JOBS is his number one priority, eh? Maybe Obama should have told us the truth and said:

"JOBS?? Well, it SHOULD be our number one priority, but my pet baby CRAP CARE is numero uno.. Oh, and Scheme & Ream is number two.. And my crass and uber-political machination of Amnesty For Illegals is number 3. Oh and readying the cruise missiles to send after the Jonas boys, just in case, is number 4.. Number 5, of course is begging the politicians for civil discourse while using a sexual slur against my political opponents.. So, I have to be honest with ya'all and say that JOBS is probably priority #6, but will probably move further down on the list because, as you know, we DO have this terrorism problem that I just can't seem to get right, so I will probably ignore it for a bit longer .."

THAT would have been the proper statement had Obama actually been honest with the American people..

Making love to Wall Street

However, the facts show different..

Who are Wall Streets biggest recipients of donations??

Democratic Party, Helped by Wall Street, Outraising Republicans
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=ax3gLHhi7ONs

Democrats are darlings of Wall St.
articles.latimes.com/2008/mar/21/nation/na-wallstdems21

Wall Street Steps Up Political Donations, Lobbying
online.wsj.com/article/SB125616828727300265.html

Wall Street Political Donations Flowing to Democrats’ Coffers
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/wall-street-political-donations-flowing-to-democrats-coffers.html

So, while it may be true that the GOP is "making love" to Wall Street, it is clear that the Democrats are sneaking in the back door for a noon'er, while the Republicans are at work...

Once again, someone please remind me as to the difference between the Democrats and the Republicans??

I'll have to get to the rest later...

Michale.....