Mary Bobbins:"OK, Time for a diaper change and a bath."
Grandpa Simpson:"Put me down for one of each!"

:D

As to the rest..

By continuing the rendition of prisoners to countries where harsh interrogation techniques (IE torture) are the rule rather than the exception, the Obama Administration gives tacit approval to the torture of terrorists.

This is supported by a statement from a HuffPo author, John V. Santore, who said...

"The typically sterile term "rendition" is now inextricably linked with torture in the public mind, as well it should be. While there may unfortunately be a legal difference, there is no moral or practical difference between the United States directly torturing an individual under American control, and the US transferring an individual to another nation where they will be tortured by a foreign government.

One of the few (VERY few) times I actually agree with what is posted on HuffPo...

One more indication that Obama does not have the steel ones necessary to be CinC...

Which is why we need President Cheney in office! :D

She also implies, I might add, that the parameters of the Bush administration's policy of rendition have not been changed.

It has not. The POLICY of rendition continues to this day.

There has been some lip service paid to the effect that the Obama Administration is monitoring the renditions more closely than the Bush Administration had.. But like Obama's Magical Mystery Job Creations, it's very easy to say, but impossible to verify..

So, in this regard, MrsCW is dead on ballz accurate. ("It's an industry term." :D )

The policy of rendition is still in place under the Obama/Biden Administration.

I have found the New York Times and the LA Times to be less than credible sources on these matters.

Perhaps you will find the Obama/Biden White House to be a tad more credible, eh? :D

{The Executive Order} will also look at rendition and other policies for transferring individuals to third countries to be sure that our policies and practices comply with all obligations and are sufficient to ensure that individuals do not face torture and cruel treatment if transferred. This Task Force will be led by the Attorney General with the Secretary of Defense and the Director of National Intelligence as co-Vice Chairs.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/background-president-obama-signs-executive-orders-detention-and-interrogation-polic

As you can see, there is nothing in that Executive Order that would indicate that rendition has been terminated.. As I said, it simply pays lip service to the idea of more closely monitoring the process..

Michale.....

I appreciate your googling efforts ... I really do. But, either you have not been following this conversation or I've made myself about as clear as mud.

Mrs. Weigant has implied that the Obama/Biden administration employs or condones (the same, in my book) the use of torture by way of the continuation of the previous administration's rendition policy. She also implies, I might add, that the parameters of the Bush administration's policy of rendition have not been changed. I contend that these implications are serious accusations which are patently invalid.

While the first couple of articles you provide both support my view that this administration does NOT condone the use of torture, I have found the New York Times and the LA Times to be less than credible sources on these matters.

One of president Obama's first actions in office was to sign an executive order securing the continued practice of secretly capturing, transporting and imprisoning so called "enemy combatants" it has been revealed.

http://www.infowars.net/articles/february2009/020209rendition.htm

Just the facts, ma'am.. :D

Michale.....

In his first few days in office, Mr Obama was lauded for rejecting policies of the George W Bush era, but it has emerged the CIA still has the authority to carry out renditions in which suspects are picked up and often sent to a third country for questioning.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/4425135/Barack-Obama-to-allow-anti-terror-rendition-to-continue.html

CONT

Under executive orders issued by Obama recently, the CIA still has authority to carry out what are known as renditions, secret abductions and transfers of prisoners to countries that cooperate with the United States.

Current and former U.S. intelligence officials said that the rendition program might be poised to play an expanded role going forward because it was the main remaining mechanism -- aside from Predator missile strikes -- for taking suspected terrorists off the street.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/feb/01/nation/na-rendition1

CONT

Do you have any information that the US has continued the policy of rendition under the Obama/Biden administration?

From Google....

The Obama administration will continue the Bush administration’s practice of sending terrorism suspects to third countries for detention and interrogation, but pledges to closely monitor their treatment to ensure that they are not tortured, administration officials said Monday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/25/us/politics/25rendition.html

CONT

My facts come from having been there and done that.

Where do your "facts" come from?? Huffington Post?? Daily Kos??

You still haven't answered the one basic question. Why do you care more for the comfort and convenience of terrorists than you do for their potential victims??

The fact that you won't answer is answer enough.

Thus KSM "confessed" to a nonexistent Iraq-al Qaeda connection.

Cite your source?? Huffington Post again?? :^\

A well-informed and capable translator is kind of important when you're interrogating a prisoner, you know.

On this we agree. And a well-informed and capable translator would NEVER throw away a valuable tool in his arsenal. Any more than a cop would throw away his gun before going on patrol.

On the other hand, a translator who is only concerned about being politically correct and is worried about hurting the terrorist's feelings is a danger to his troops and a threat to his country..

Michale.....

A well-informed and capable translator is kind of important when you're interrogating a prisoner, you know. But you don't need translators either because in the idealistic world of the torture porn fetishist, punishing the prisoner is more effective and important than getting, y'know, intelligence.

Since you wrote that the Obama/Biden administration has continued the policy of torture, I have been trying, in vain, to find credible information to prove or refute it. I have yet to find any such information.

I still believe - at the distinct risk of sounding extremely naive, and so be it - that when Joe Biden says that the US doesn’t torture that means that the US doesn’t torture terror suspects nor render them to a third country or otherwise undisclosed location for that purpose.

Do you have any information that the US has continued the policy of rendition under the Obama/Biden administration?

It is all well and good to have your eyes wide open to both the good and the bad, to support the good and condemn the bad. However, it is quite another thing to accuse this administration of continuing the policy of using, condoning or justifying torture without any credible evidence to back it up.

This is exactly why it's utterly ridiculous to give terrorist's rights...

One of the highest value Al Qaeda terrorists we have in custody is well on his way to being freed so he can kill and butcher innocent Americans again..

I bet that lawyer who got him off must be real proud of herself..

Wonder how she will feel when more bodies are laid at her feet...

Michale.....

I think this was mentioned in her post last year, but Mrs. CW has to keep a certain degree of anonymity due to having her own professional career. In other words, she doesn't want to fear being associated with a loudmouth like myself at times. Heh. So, sorry, but "Mrs. CW" has to be her official name here.

That's kewl.. After I had posted that post, I noticed that she signed her post, 'Mrs.CW' which should have been a clue to me that she didn't mind the moniker..

Color me embarrassed.. :D

Mrs.CW,

Surely torturing terrorists for actionable intel is a horrible and disturbing practice..

A horrid practice only surpassed by NOT torturing terrorists for actionable intel, thereby possibly allowing a horrible butchering of hundreds, thousands or even millions of innocent men, women and children.

As much as we might want to believe otherwise, the adage that the ends justifies the means is no where more prevalent than in the world of Counter Terrorism.

Michale.....

I think this was mentioned in her post last year, but Mrs. CW has to keep a certain degree of anonymity due to having her own professional career. In other words, she doesn't want to fear being associated with a loudmouth like myself at times. Heh. So, sorry, but "Mrs. CW" has to be her official name here.

:-)

-CW

Many thanks for your comments.

To clarify why I included torture in the list of terrible things this country is doing and condoning is because the only reason I can think of for the USA to continue the practice of rendition is to send people out of the country to be tortured.

When I decided to become an American I did so with my eyes open to both the good and bad that this country is capable of. My hope is to support the good while condemning the bad and try to change things for the better.

Mrs. CW

I actually kinda liked the way the new comment code looked.

Still easy to follow, but yet more streamlined appearing...

Michale.....

May I have the first initial of MrsCW's name?? I feel funny directing posts to "MrsCW". She's her own person and shouldn't be an appendage of the great and powerful CW.. :D

{Michale surreptitiously rubs the brown stuff off his nose...}

Call me silly, but I would much prefer to say 'xW' rather than 'MrsCW'...

Michale....

I hope that President Obama will begin work on comprehensive immigration reform soon, now that it looks likely that Congress is about to pass healthcare reform.

Actually, JOBS will be on the calender before immigration reform..

Actually2, according to Obama at his SOTU address, JOBS were supposed to be BEFORE even CrapCare.

I guess another lie by Obama that goes un-noticed by the Left...

Ink,

All of it adds up to an immigration system that does not reflect American values.

American values USED to reward hard work and successful thinking..

Under the Democrats, the more sorrowful and pitiful you can make your story, the better your chances of getting entitlements..

Michale.....

On this, Liz and I are in complete agreement..

When it comes to the use of torture against scumbag terrorists in order to save innocent lives, there is no grey area upon which to stand.

It is permissible and should be employed as a measure of last resort.

And, as research clearly shows, it IS being employed in such a manner.

One of the few things (VERY few) that Obama has done right in his short presidency.

Why the compassion and sympathy for terrorists and not for their potential victims??

Michale.....

Second, it's nothing short of atrocity how bad the immigration system is. A friend of mine spent two years in the Dominican Republic and returned married; when he set about getting her a visa he discovered that it is harder to bring a spouse into the country than a fiancee. Worse, if he died before her citizenship process was done she would have to leave the country. She was already two or three months pregnant by this point and it took too long enough to get her into the country -- which meant another giant hassle with immigration and citizenship.

Our immigration laws create some perverse incentives; it's easier to knock up your girlfriend than marry her. The horror-stories about families split by INS... Buddhist monks kicked out of the country because their room & board is "pay"... All of it adds up to an immigration system that does not reflect American values.

Liz and M ... that's a good one!

Seriously, you might have to warn Mrs. Weigant that some of us are more than a little sensitive when it comes to torture, not to mention to the veracity of Biden's word.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying that Obama kept the door slightly open to using torture in the future. This is one of the very few black and white, clear cut issues that have ever existed. There are only two options here - the US government condones state-sanctioned torture, as occured under the Bush administration, or it does not.

In other words, when it comes to condoning and justifying the use of torture, there is no grey area upon which to stand.

What the Missus was referring to, I believe, is the fact that when Obama swore off torture, he kept the door slightly open to using it in the future. So, technically, if you believe what people say, we are not torturing people now, but retain the right to possibly do so in the future. So there's no real "yes" or "no" answer to the question, really.

-CW

Whoops! I've been testing some new comment code, and left some test code (which is obviously not working right) in last night that I should have removed. I'm trying to clean it up now, let me know if the problems persist.

-CW

This is documented by those same people who documented the torture activities under Bush..

So, the answer is yes.

Torture of terrorists for actionable intel is still occurring under the Obama/Biden administration.

Michale.....

Your link doesn't work. I don't want a link, anyways.

Why can't you just give me a 'yes' or 'no' answer to my question. That's all I'm looking for, you know.

Am I seeing double or are the 2 COMMENTS sections?? One above the posting box and one below???

Michale is cornfused...

Michale.....

No one has claimed it is the "most effective" interrogation method.

Just as no one can claim that a police officer carrying a gun is the "most effective" deterrent for crime.

But it is indisputable that BOTH are valuable tools in their respective arsenals to address their respective missions.

But, I am waiting for a simple answer to my question asking if the Obama/Biden administration has sanctioned the use of torture and, if so, when they have actually employed that tactic. It is still my contention that they have not. Of course, that is not to say that certain policies of the Bush administration have continued under the stewardship of Obama/Biden.

Oh where oh where to begin...

GOOGLE would be a good place, I spose...

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=torture+continues+under+obama&aq=0&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=Torture+continues+u&gs_rfai=&fp=1dc62da33e2ff469

Now, of course, you can pooh-pooh (Winnie, not number 2 :D) these away as simply fanatics, but keep in mind. It's these same "fanatics" that brought Obama to power...

Michale....

I'm not really up for a debate to resolve whether torture is the most effective interrogation method ... maybe later. :)

But, I am waiting for a simple answer to my question asking if the Obama/Biden administration has sanctioned the use of torture and, if so, when they have actually employed that tactic. It is still my contention that they have not. Of course, that is not to say that certain policies of the Bush administration have continued under the stewardship of Obama/Biden.

On the one hand, I am rather reluctant to turn this into a torture thread. We know where those usually end up, eh?? :D

On the other hand, the subject is fair game as it was mentioned in the original commentary..

So I will reluctantly, yet enthusiastically, discuss the issue and hope that TPTB will reign us (read in "me" :D) in if things get too tense..

As to your question, I simply point to several decisions made by the Obama Administration that show tacit approval of the Bush Admininstration's CT policies..

Planning for Gitmo WEST is the first and foremost.

The simple fact is, torture IS effective in producing actionable intel. This has been stated several times directly from officials in the Obama Administration.

I understand ya'alls compassion, I really do..

I simply think it is misplaced..

Ya'all should be compassionate towards the potential innocent victims of terrorists, rather than the terrorists themselves..

Michale....

Let me qualify that ... the only idealism I may have been guilty of is believing Joe Biden when he said, emphatically, that America doesn't torture. I took that as the gospel, so to speak.

So, help me out, if you can ... provide me with a concrete and credible example(s) of this administration sanctioning the use of torture.

It has nothing, whatsoever, to do with idealism. Try again.

Fair enough.. I admire your idealism and truly wish I could share it..

But, sadly, I know better...

Michale.....

In a word, no.

It's as I have always said...

People who don't have all the facts are the one's who are against torturing terrorists for intel.

Obama was against torturing terrorists for intel. Once he became president, he learned all the facts and decided (correctly) that such acts were necessary for the safety of Americans and citizens world-wide.

Can't ya'all even concede the *possibility* that Obama (and Bush) are right about this issue and ya'all are wrong??

Isn't that even *slightly* possible??

Michale.....

Happy Anniversary!

I sure hope the political climate becomes more conducive for a civil debate over how best to achieve immigration reform.

Now, I have to tell you that my jaw dropped at one particular point in your thought-provoking piece. That was the part where you casually dropped the explosive line that the Obama administration has continued in the Bush vein by sanctioning torture.

That's about the last thing that I ever needed to hear. That is not the case, is it? If it is, don't answer that!

Hope to hear more from you this year!