Personally, I think Alexander Hamilton would be tickled pink and gushing over the current USofA. The current state of the county, even under the current economic problems, would have vastly exceeded his wildest expectations. Of course this might not be viewed as a good thing by most the other founding fathers...

Though most might not like the modern political party system, they would probably do so with a guilty conscience. They would see that they all sowed the seeds of political parties during the two decades that followed the revolutionary period.

Ya'all should BE so lucky!! :D

Though I probably should give ya'all a breather... I really don't want to wear out my welcome here... Too late!! :D

So, maybe I should take it more easy and let other people have a chance to shine...

Eh???

Naaaaaawwwwwwwwwww.......... :D

Michale.....

I hope you're not saying that your work is done here. :D

I figured it all out..

On my way into work, I had an epiphany... Don't worry. It's not catching... :D

I have been wracking my brain, trying to figure out the blase' attitude that the Left have with regards to all the secrecy, lack of transparency and the complete and utter contempt that Congress has for actually READING (or having read to them) the legislation that they are voting on..

But I think that I have figured it out.

The Left have FINALLY come around to my way of thinking.

The Left (as a whole) have finally accepted the idea that, our government was voted in, they are in a position to know things that we don't know and therefore they should just be left to their own devices and they will do what is best for us.

In short, the Left now believes as I do. That we should just leave the government alone and let them do the jobs they were hired for.

Congratulations and kudos for seeing the logic of the situation.

Unfortunately, in THIS case, the logic of the situation leans in the OTHER direction. For many reasons. Well, for two reasons anyways...

Regardless, it IS heartening to see one's philosophy so widely validated and accepted. :D

Michale.....

It WAS common knowledge. We WERE upset. We DID outcry. I personally wrote my representative, both senators, the White House, and the local newspaper. Along with others, I spoke out against it at a rally about 17 months before Moore's film hit theatres.

Do you have any PROOF of your accusation?? Not hysterical Bush Bashing Michael Moore or Drama Queen Cindy Sheehan but real, unequivocal proof??

And who is this "we"?? Do ya have a mouse in yer pocket?? :D

Somehow, during a previous editing session, I accepted the wrong spelling into my spell checker. I'm trying to figure out how to delete the incorrect spelling from my Word dictionary, but I have corrected it in the article — thanks for the eagle eye!

I can't believe I let loose with a {gag} spelling lame!! Spelling and Grammar lames are the lowest forms of debate. My apologies... :D

As for the essay you posted, the Founding Fathers would be horrified that we have a standing military and political parties. They believed both were anathema to freedom. And our country started out deep in debt, so that's nothing new (had to pay for that war somehow).

I agree with their notion of being horrified at Political Parties. I have expressed equal horror at the hysterical partisanship that borders on... No that CROSSES the border into blatant bigotry. As real, as hurtful and as insidious as racial bigotry. Any concept that DIVIDES Americans and pits one against the other is shameful and should not stand. The Civil War should have taught us THAT lesson. More Americans killed in the Civil War than in any war since COMBINED..

But I am glad that the Founding Fathers came to their senses regarding a standing army. Had they note, the grand experiment that is the US of A would have withered and died long ago.

As for the reading the bills thing, I've said this before: nobody reads bills on Capitol Hill, no matter WHICH party is in charge. I know, the Republicans are using it as a clever talking point, but it's complete moose poop. See if anybody railing about not reading bills can swear to the following statement: "When my party was in control of Congress, I read every significant piece of legislation I voted on." THEY CAN'T SAY THIS, at least not with a straight face. It is nothing more than political posturing. Rail against the practice if you'd like, but don't try to blame it on one party. Because they ALL do it — that's what they have staffs for.

Moose poop?? Betcha been DYING to throw that in somewhere, eh? :D hehehehehe

As for your point, yes... Republican AND Democrat
CongressCritters probably don't read the bills themselves. Yes. They probably have staff that reads them and then sums them up for their respective critter.

But MY point is that, in recent legislation, there hasn't even been time for the STAFF to read and sum up the bills. Legislation is finished and compiled to the tune of THOUSANDS of pages at 0300hrs and then voted on 5 or 6 HOURS later?? Whatever happened to the Obama pledge that ALL legislation would be posted to the web for at LEAST 48 hours before it was voted on? Not only is legislation NOT posted to the web AT ALL, but it is not even allowed to be READ by ***ANYONE***. CongressCritter OR staff..

Now, you simply CANNOT tell me that *THAT* is "normal". I think we all agree that it is COMPLETELY unacceptable.

I read an article about how the White House is complaining about all the negative press coming out about the HealthCare legislation. The White House is quoted as saying, "Congress AND the Public should just wait till the final legislation is released before commenting on it.." or words to that effect.

We **CAN'T** wait for it to be release before being negative about it. Because with the underhanded way that Congress is ramming thru legislation these days, it's released and voted on before **ANYONE** has a chance to even read the damn thing.

If ya'all were to really sit down and be honest with yourselves ya'all would agree that, had this type of governing been done under a Republican government, ya'all would be going ballistic. And RIGHTLY so...

Yes. I agree.. CongressCritters who actually, themselves, do not read legislation is pretty much par for the course, regardless of Political Party. The practice of having one's staff read legislation and sum it up to CongressCritters is common practice. Agreed..

But what is NOT par for the course, what is NOT common practice, what IS unusual and what IS completely contemptible and unacceptable is legislation that is voted on, having not been read by ANYONE at all, staff or what have you, and is compiled and collated in the dead of night to be voted on mere hours later. COMPLETELY and UNEQUIVOCALLY unknown by ANYONE, even the authors that penned the legislation.

And once again, I am truly (seriously and honestly) amazed that I am the only one here who has a problem with this.

What happened to "transparency"?? What happened to "piercing the veil"??

Where is the change??

Michale.....

Somehow, during a previous editing session, I accepted the wrong spelling into my spell checker. I'm trying to figure out how to delete the incorrect spelling from my Word dictionary, but I have corrected it in the article -- thanks for the eagle eye!

As for the essay you posted, the Founding Fathers would be horrified that we have a standing military and political parties. They believed both were anathema to freedom. And our country started out deep in debt, so that's nothing new (had to pay for that war somehow).

As for the reading the bills thing, I've said this before: nobody reads bills on Capitol Hill, no matter WHICH party is in charge. I know, the Republicans are using it as a clever talking point, but it's complete moose poop. See if anybody railing about not reading bills can swear to the following statement: "When my party was in control of Congress, I read every significant piece of legislation I voted on." THEY CAN'T SAY THIS, at least not with a straight face. It is nothing more than political posturing. Rail against the practice if you'd like, but don't try to blame it on one party. Because they ALL do it -- that's what they have staffs for.

BashiBazouk -

Thanks, you made the point about the Founding Fathers better (going through these one by one here).

-CW

"Imagine the hysterical outcry from the Left if it had become common knowledge"

It WAS common knowledge. We WERE upset. We DID outcry. I personally wrote my representative, both senators, the White House, and the local newspaper. Along with others, I spoke out against it at a rally about 17 months before Moore's film hit theatres.

By TOM RAUM

WASHINGTON (AP) - The White House is being forced to acknowledge the wide gap between its once-upbeat predictions about the economy and today's bleak landscape.

The administration's annual midsummer budget update is sure to show higher deficits and unemployment and slower growth than projected in President Barack Obama's budget in February and update in May, and that could complicate his efforts to get his signature health care and global-warming proposals through Congress.

The release of the update - usually scheduled for mid-July - has been put off until the middle of next month, giving rise to speculation the White House is delaying the bad news at least until Congress leaves town on its August 7 summer recess.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090720/D99I4A0G0.html

What's next??

"Proof" positive that Bush was the diabolical mastermind that actually committed the terrorist attacks of 9/11 in collusion with the Israeli Mossad and the Girl Scouts??

Do you have ANY substantiated proof to support your (apparent) assertion that Republicans, as a whole, did not read any of the Patriot Act, Military Commissions act or the FISA Updates??

ANY proof beyond the blowhard hysterical rantings of Michael Moore??

Any?? Any?? Buehler??

Regardless of all that, it appears you are saying that you don't mind that Congress doesn't read any of the bills that they pass as long as Democrats are in charge...

How is this not political bigotry??

Michale.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zf2nCiBJLo

The Left would have gone absolutely berserk and rightly so.

Does anyone deny this?

Michale.....

Really???

Which part??

The part that condemns Congress for not even READING the bills that they vote on??

Or the part about Congress bloating bills beyond all recognition or respectability..

Is that "about right" for Fox News??

Or maybe it's simply the facts of the here and now?

I am STILL flabbergasted that people are so blase about their Democrats in Congress that are passing bills left and right that are not even being READ!!!

Doesn't that BOTHER any one???

Ahhh I see.. It's much easier and much more comfortable to simply wallow in the dark dank pit of political bigotry and ignore the facts...

"What?? That oncoming light at the end of the tunnel?? I am sure it's not an oncoming train... Would you like to wallow in some more mud-slinging???"

Michale.....

And yet, this country was created....

Funny how the Left is always invoking the imagery of the "Founding Fathers"...

Except, of course, when it doesn't fit their myopic view of the world...

Of course, the Right also has those same myopic tendencies.... Which is why I am so glad that I am a political agnostic..

They also flirted with central banking in order to pay off huge debts incurred during the Revolutionary War.

And they discarded the notion...

Why do you think that is???

Funny, but this nation was created with a fairly large national debt…

Cite?? References??

The problem in the here and now is not one of national debt. The problem in the here and now is that the national debt is acknowledged and is being actively grown to monumental and unheard of proportions..

Tell me... Do you (does ANYONE) see the inherent illogic in actively, aggressively and artificially making the current debt grow larger and larger??

Do you (does ANYONE) see the inherent illogic in the concept of spending (and borrowing) money to temporarily stave off bankruptcy??

Am I REALLY the ONLY ONE here that sees what a fallacy such a proposal really is??

Is everyone so blinded by partisan and political bigotry that they are so willing to be Louise to the administration's Thelma???

Honestly??

Michale.....

One thing I have noticed about the founding fathers is they did not speak with one voice. Not even remotely close to one voice.

They also flirted with central banking in order to pay off huge debts incurred during the Revolutionary War. Funny, but this nation was created with a fairly large national debt...

This particular one is sooo good (chilling, in fact), I am forced to post it in it's entirety...

As an aside to CW, if you feel there are any copyright issues, please delete this comment..

What Would Our Forefathers Think of America Today?
Janine Turner

I have a fantasy.

It's fascinating. It's futuristic. It's foretelling.

My fantasy is that our country's forefathers would miraculously appear today in America. I see them walking among us, dressed in velvet coats and knee pants, hair in a pony tails, hats in hand. Thomas Jefferson in Virginia. Alexander Hamilton on Wall Street. John Adams in Boston. Benjamin Franklin in Philadelphia. And, George Washington in Washington.

I envision it theatrically, of course, with cameras. A panoramic sweep as they turn full circle in awe. What would they think? Would they be proud? Would they be shocked? I, for one, want them desperately to be pleased.

This is an idea that has fascinated me for decades. I can remember asking my father about it when I was nine: "Dad, what would our forefathers think of America if they returned today? About what would they be most disappointed?"

My father, who is a graduate of the United States Military Academy at West Point and a man of few words, thought for a moment and simply said, "taxes."

What would our forefathers think of us today? I yearn for their wisdom. I believe, if they roamed the halls of Congress together and eavesdropped on the conversations, heard the rancor, felt the division, they would say, or at least Thomas Jefferson would say, "Ah, democracy at work." However, upon further investigation their impressions would sour. They would accurately perceive that the tenor has changed.

During their day, they too differed and fought. They were, at times, wickedly vicious -- but it was for Americans. They believed that God wove an innate promise in human beings and they envisioned the infinite possibilities of the mind and soul if freed from tyrannical government. They ardently loved America. Their purpose was for America to be born, to blossom and to be the hope of mankind. They took pride in their remarkable achievements. They believed that their victory over the British and the success in uniting their fledgling country's passionate diversities as they constructed and ratified the Constitution, were the works of "Divine Providence."

Brilliant and well read as they were, they would quickly surmise the threats to America. Alarmed by the bitter greed, they would stand at the pulpit of Congress and pound the gavel and say, "Awaken Patriots. Awaken your sense of unity! A Congress divided, for the sake of pride, will most certainly fall. A Congress that betrays its constituents, for the sake of party line, will most assuredly falter. A Congress that bloats bills to the point of obscene obscurity will be condemned." They would be astounded by a Congress that does not read its own works and warn, "A Congress that cannot or will not read the bills before they vote, before they represent the American people, will, without fail, lead their country and its people to doom."

When they realize C-SPAN is there, and they would adeptly figure this out, they would look into the camera and warn the American people. They would warn parents that by neglecting to teach their children their rights as embodied in the Constitution as well as the inherent responsibilities of citizenship, they will let America simply slip away. Thomas Jefferson would recount his own words, "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." They would warn, "It won't be sudden. It will be insidious. Those who devalue freedom, who underestimate human genius, integrity and industriousness, will cunningly dominate the debate."

Benjamin Franklin would recount his own words, "Think what you do when you run in debt; you give to another power over your liberty." They would say, "By letting Congress bankrupt your country, you most assuredly will lose your freedom, your free will. By letting Congress take away your right to own a gun, you will let a dictator seize your country and your home, because he will encounter no resistance." They would quote Samuel Adams' wisdom, "Be forewarned, the pooling of property and the redistributing of wealth are despotic and unconstitutional."

They would close with biting truths saying, "Without moral values, which should begin in Congress, America will lose her roots, her basis, her thesis." They would echo Paul Revere and cry out, "Stand up, Americans. The challenge is coming! The challenge is coming! Let freedom continue to ring!" They would exit Congress and they would not be downtrodden. A smile would emanate from their faces, for they know the heart of Americans.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2009/07/16/janine-turner-fathers/

Get that??

If the second Porkulus Package did not pass, Unemployment would rise above 8%!!!

Guess what??

The second Porkulus DID pass and Unemployment has risen to 9.4%...

hmmmmmmmmm

Credibility is becoming a factor here...

Michale.....

My "plan" didn't make the Blog translation...

DOCTOR {=======} PATIENT

Yes, the "Status Quo" is unacceptable...

But, if it's a choice between the Status Quo and a plan that solves NO problems and makes existing problems worse, then the Status Quo is the best option.

It's as simple a choice as the choice between the Devil you know and the Devil you don't know.

I just hope against hope that you won't end up with anything remotely resembling the completely wretched system we Canadians have had to endure. I mean, our government run healthcare system is killing us up here.

I am actually quite surprised.. Proponents of the Health Care Plan point to Canada as a shining example of how socialized health care can work.

Liz, are you saying it DOESN'T work??

Michale.....

So, let me see if I got this right.

It's NOT OK for a Republican to channel Ricky Ricardo because it was 50 years ago... (58 years to be exact.)

But....

It *IS* OK for a Democrat (wait... TWO Democrats) to "channel" Perry Mason even though it was 50 years ago as well. (52 years to be exact)

Gotcha... wink, wink... :D

On the other hand, your comment could have meant to say that ethno-centric humor is 50 years out of date. I don't think it was, as you mentioned "on television". But if it were then I would completely agree with you. In this hysterical politically correct morass of a world we find ourselves in, heaven forbid that we should find something humorous is actually funny...

Go figger... :D

That's actually a pretty good line — "as the Republican Party sinks slowly in the South" — I think I should start using it more often.

That's actually a great line.. I bet you can use it often.. :D Right up to the point that the GOP wins back control of Congress.. So, that means you should get about 15 more months use out of it. :D

Seriously, though. It IS a great line. It works on many different levels...

The "Gang of Six" in the Senate (aside: what is with all the "gangs" on Capitol Hill anyway? Insert your own West Side Story joke here, I guess, in the spirit of everyone else doing so this week…)

Yea, I get the same feeling when I read about all the Czars that are being created.. Being inspired by President Obama, I just assigned my daughter to be "Potty Czar" over my 7 month old grandson.. :D

Baucus is pushing back with all he's got. According to him (and virtually no one else), it's all about the bipartisanship of the bill, not whether it works or actually gets passed.

Actually, from what I have read, bipartisanship is no longer a factor.. Democrats are busy doing to Republicans exactly what Democrats whined and cried about when Republicans did it to Democrats..

Is being a complete hypocrite a Congressional Job Requirement?? I'm just sayin'.....

But I digest...

The problem Baucus has with the Health Care Plan (see http://anything-goes.us/temp/hcp.gif for a graphical representation of the plan) is that it costs over a TRILLION dollars (let me spell that out for the cheap seats... over 1,000,000,000,000 dollars).

This is in ADDITION to the existing deficit that has ALSO passed the 1,000,000,000,000 dollar mark.

With apologies to Liz (Sorry, I can't help myself!!) Joe Biden summed up the administration mentality perfectly..

"We have to keep spending money or we'll go bankrupt!!"

What a crazy country this has become, eh??

I have only one specific nitpick on your Talking Points..

Defense of the status quo is not acceptible

Fire your spell checker... Unless, of course, your spell checker is Mrs CW.. Then, again of course, it's all your fault she missed it. You rushed her, you bothered her, you didn't pay enough attention to her and this is her revenge... or any combination thereof. :D

The proper spelling is acceptable

As to my general response to all of your talking points, it's easy..

Yes, the current health care program needs help.. Yes, it's heading for a cliff...

But the Democrats plan will fix NOTHING and screw things up even WORSE...

You can look at all the charts and all the PDFs and all the graphs and all the JPGs you want, but the best plan is simple...

DOCTORPATIENT

THERE...

THAT is the best plan...

But, of course, that plan does NOTHING to help the politicians or the lobbyists or the corporations...

Which is why no one will propose such a plan.

Michale.....

I'm really not just milking it, I just had to stop today when I was editing what I wrote and say "that works on a lot of levels." Sometimes I surprise myself...

But the triple-back-flip gold standard (at least for me) in this department was the sign posted on a steep curve on the driveway to Ken Kesey's house (author of "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest" and known associate of very early era hippies):

"No left turn unstoned."

Just on a linguistic level alone, of course, it's hard to beat that.

Heh.

-CW

Thinking about all that may be implied by that quote is somewhat dizzying, I must admit.

And, so...suffice to say that I would heartily agree that it is actually a pretty good line and that you should start using it more often.

:-)

So what did you think of "as the Republican Party sinks slowly in the South"?

:-)

-CW

I just hope against hope that you won't end up with anything remotely resembling the completely wretched system we Canadians have had to endure. I mean, our government run healthcare system is killing us up here.

And, as for twisted metaphors... "to chase the red herring of bipartisanship down the rabbit hole of obstructionism..." ...that was the gold standard, if ever there was one! I hope to make good use of any number of variants on the theme...with proper attribution, of course. :-)