OK, I have to give some credit, you have been beating the drum of "Obama's going to behave differently on national security once he gets into office" for a long time now.

It's a fact that many of the Left's position on their "hot button issues" are simply not in keeping with the reality of today's world.

The sooner they learn that, the better off this country will be.

But remember in this debate, if the torture hadn't happened, there would be no debate now about the photos since they would not have existed. And THAT would have kept America a lot safer.

It might have kept America (and Americans) a lot safer from retaliation against photos that never would have existed in the first place ("oh no, I've gone cross-eyed" :D).

But, as all reports seem to indicate, there would have been a LOT more dead Americans from the terrorist attacks that never got prevented because torture was not employed on the scumbags...

You remember the Star Trek VOYAGER 2-parter, "YEAR OF HELL"?? The guy had a computer that could compute all the permutations of the timeline. A 'What will happen here, if this is done there?' type computer. One of those would come in REAL handy right now.

But I digest..... :D

Regardless, the argument 'we wouldn't have had to worry about the photos if Bush et al hadn't tortured terrorists' would be small consolation to those who would lose loved ones because of the release of those photos.

And, rightly or wrongly, you can bet that those loved ones will NOT blame Bush or Cheney or anyone who was involved in the process to torture terrorists. They will blame President Obama for having released them.

Of course, they aren't going to be released so everyone is happy.. Except Al Qaeda and the Taliban, of course... Oh, and MoveOn and Soros and DailyKos etc etc etc...

Personally, I cannot WAIT for Senator Franken, just because I think he will do wonders for Democrats on the "being able to frame the issue" problem. Franken knows how to do so, and I think he'll be a good influence.

I concede, that picture was a cheap shot. Mr Franken was, after all, an entertainer.. But I am surprised that the GOP didn't use that photo in the campaign. It would have turned a LOT of people off..

Regardless, as I said before, I hope that the Democrats do get their filibuster-proof Congress.. I mean, from listening to the Hysterical (and not so Hysterical) Left, a Democratic Party-run country will be the perfect Utopia of peace on earth and goodwill towards all men..

With a filibuster-proof majority, the Dems will have to (finally) put up or shut up. There can be NO EXCUSES from the Left...

Right???

Michale.....

OK, I have to give some credit, you have been beating the drum of "Obama's going to behave differently on national security once he gets into office" for a long time now.

I realized this (in other words, I didn't have as high hopes as some on the left) when he voted for wiretapping amnesty during the campaign.

Aside: I just found out (see comments to my HuffPost 5/20/09 article, Nunberg interview) that we're using "begs the question" wrong. Darn grammar police...

As for the photos debate, I believe I commented that on a previous article, at least as far as my position on it. Sorry, I've been busy, trying to catch up on comments here.

But remember in this debate, if the torture hadn't happened, there would be no debate now about the photos since they would not have existed. And THAT would have kept America a lot safer. Right? No photos to release = no danger to Americans anywhere in the world as a result of photos documenting torture.

Personally, I cannot WAIT for Senator Franken, just because I think he will do wonders for Democrats on the "being able to frame the issue" problem. Franken knows how to do so, and I think he'll be a good influence.

nypoet22 -

I agree completely. This is what the Truth Commission could address once and for all -- the whole scale of what was done and how effective it was.

-CW

You may love me now but, just wait until we begin our second - or would that be third? - round of the torture debate! :D

As far as adverse side-effects?

Side-effects MORE adverse than having hundreds or thousands of innocent men, women and children brutally murdered?

What exactly would these "more adverse" side-effects be??

Michale.....

"Personally, I think what they did was warranted and, as has been PROVEN, was effective in keeping this country safe."

This is simply not the case. There may be some evidence that connects A with B, but to call it proof is at least a gross overstatement (if not an outright falsehood), which ignores many alternate explanations for the results, as well as considerable adverse side-effects.

The more we start to learn about what went on in the Bush Administration the more it is beginning to show that the Bush legacy will not be the dismal, dreary legacy that many on the Left had HOPED it would be.

While it is still a while to go before the mid-term elections, I think the revelations that come between now and then will show exactly how much the BA did to actively, aggressively AND SUCCESSFULLY protect this country..

One couldn't ask for a better legacy.

Michale.....

The problem with ignoring Pelosi's role in the torture issue is at the heart of the Democrat's problem when it comes to National Security.

And that problem is that, for the most part, Democrats do not have the balls to PUBLICLY make the calls that they KNOW must be made to keep this country safe.

Oh yes, Dems are fine and dandy about approving of torture and taking the position of "Are you sure you are doing enough??" if they can do it in their smoke-filled back rooms. But shine the light of day on them and they scramble like roaches trying to find (political) cover.

Nothing illustrates this better than President Obama's reversal on MANY hysterical Left issues.

It's all fine and dandy to cater to the hysterical Left in a campaign. But once Obama actually got in office and actually SAW the reality of things he made MANY of the exact same decisions that the Bush Administration has made.

Exactly as I predicted he would...

And now we see the hysterical Left turning on Obama. Again, exactly as I predicted.

So, this begs the question..

If even the Democrat's messiah joins with the Bush Administration on certain policies and issues, shouldn't the hysterical Left take a step back and say, "hmmmmm Maybe we ARE wrong about these things..."

Well, I guess if they did that, the wouldn't be the hysterical Left, now would they? They would be the LOGICAL Left and this country would be a whole lot better off.

@Liz

On this basis alone, I cannot fathom how anyone could call for the release of these photos at this time.

I love you!!! :D

Once again, I think this is a perfect illustration of the difference between campaigning for President and BEING the President.

If Obama had sat idly by and let those photos be released and just ONE soldier's death could be traced back to that release, the Obama Administration would have been a one term Administration and the GOP would be swept back into power in 2010 by huge margins..

@nypoet

1-2. In the face of his unpopularity, Bush often likened himself to Harry Truman. Would Truman have said, "The buck stops at Nancy Pelosi?"

No one is saying that the Bush Administration is blameless. Personally, I think what they did was warranted and, as has been PROVEN, was effective in keeping this country safe.

The issue here is the hypocrisy of the Democrats in general and Pelosi in particular.

Pelosi (and the Bush Administration) did the right thing for the safety of this country and I applaud her (and them) for it. But, for christ's sake, have the balls to stand up and take responsibility for the actions..

The more Pelosi tries to wiggle and waffle, the more she gets Democrats in hot water over the issue..

3. Cheney interview: "torture?" or "enhanced interrogation technique?"

ToMAYto, ToMAAto.....

4. If there was any doubt that the republicans like war just a little too much, they want to start "world war III" in the senate just to refuse to admit that Al Franken won!

Oh, I see.. So running to the courts to settle elections is only in the purview of Democrats??

Personally, anything that prevents THIS man.....

http://anything-goes.us/temp/afd.jpg

.... from going to the senate, is a worthwhile endeavor...

Michale.....

1-2. In the face of his unpopularity, Bush often likened himself to Harry Truman. Would Truman have said, "The buck stops at Nancy Pelosi?"

3. Cheney interview: "torture?" or "enhanced interrogation technique?"

4. If there was any doubt that the republicans like war just a little too much, they want to start "world war III" in the senate just to refuse to admit that Al Franken won!

5. Sorry prez, but with the healthcare industry there IS no compromise; either you bite them or they bite you.

6-7. Republican media has become so insane that even now that there's a perfectly valid reason to criticize the president (as an inexperienced neophyte who's in over his head), they manage to come up with criticisms that make absolutely no sense.

What is even more disheartening is the public call for the release of these photos when the only people who will immediately suffer the detrimental and even fatal consequences of such action are the US and coalition troops on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan. On this basis alone, I cannot fathom how anyone could call for the release of these photos at this time.

As for the military commissions, is it not possible that what Obama is proposing is not at all the equivalent of continuing what the Bush administration did. In other words, could it be that Obama/Biden are fully capable of setting up a military commissions process that would pass constitutional muster?