Yer right.. I should have added that caveat...

Correct that to read, "As long as it's only terrorists who are tortured and as long as it produces intel that saves innocent lives and there is absolutely no other way to obtain the intel in the time frame necessary I am SHOCKED that anyone would have a problem with it.."

Bank runs and stock dumping aren't the result of reason they're the result of emotion, specifically, fear. The banks and auto were not allowed to fail then simply to assuage fear. Nothing more. And it worked.

If by "worked" you mean it delayed the problem until things were worse and we wasted billions of dollars in doing so, then yea.... I guess it "worked".

Helluva way to run a railroad...

Michale.....

"As long as it's only terrorists who are tortured and as long as it produces intel that saves innocent lives, I am SHOCKED that anyone would have a problem with it.."

I have a problem with it and I know you're not at all shocked. Its not enough to just produce "intel that saves innocent lives," it must be the best last means in a truly desperate situation.

There is absolutely no difference in you attitude and that of the terrorists. I don't doubt for an instant that your "ends justify the means" mentality is necessary or appropriate to counter-terrorism professionals. You need to be able to think like your enemy to anticipate their actions.

But while tactically useful, strategically its disastrous, and the reason we insist our military be under civilian control. They may need to think that way but we cannot afford for our policy-makers or our citizenry to. You need to overcome your training and recognize that.

"In the here and now, when those ten guilty men can push a button and brutally murder hundreds or thousands or even millions of innocent men, women and children, that old adage is outdated and completely unworkable.."

You are wrong, believing its better that ten guilty men go free than one innocent man be convicted is what sets us apart from the terrorists. We're not just animals fighting for mere survival, we're fighting to build a better, more peaceful and just society. If its "outdated and completely unworkable" then we've already lost and its only a matter of which set of terrorists win.

...As to auto bankruptcies, pretending that failing now is no different than failing then, when everyone was afraid the whole system might collapse, is crazy.

Bank runs and stock dumping aren't the result of reason they're the result of emotion, specifically, fear. The banks and auto were not allowed to fail then simply to assuage fear. Nothing more. And it worked.

I believe Obama's framing however, is secondary to his being honest. Truly with all the opportunities for failure he currently enjoys only a fool would want more.

His job is to run the country day-to-day. Investigating torture and Bush/Cheney, giving Republicans, as they so desperately have been seeking, something they can plausibly hang the "partisan" hat on would make that job much harder and be equally foolish. Such an investigation is not his job.

He's been careful not predetermine Justice Dept. outcomes preserving their independence with the exception of ruling out prosecutions of those ho acted in good faith. Which, as President with pardon authority, is his right.

But any investigations belong in Congress or Justice and to paraphrase FDR Pres. Obama has every right to demand that we make them do it.

The media, and Republicans, seem to ignore the fact that we just don't elect Presidents we don't trust. And its historically taken considerable effort by sitting Presidents to squander that trust. Manufactured "failures and betrayals," even 24/7, by themselves just won't do it. Particularly when the harbingers of doom themselves have far less credibility than Obama.

The media thinks opinion is news and the news is just opinion. Since they make no distinction between news and opinion we've been forced to use other sources to distinguish between the two. -- To get the news. --

What did they think would happen?

And the Republicans?!

After eight years of everyone crying wolf no-one is listening to Republicans or the media.

Why is it that Obama and Democrats pushed and pushed and pushed for the multi-billion taxpayer dollar buyout because bankruptcy was NOT an option..

But now, bankruptcy is OK??

Once again, my Jedi telepathy was dead on ballz accurate. Back then I said over and over again that we're shelling out billions and billions of dollars to companies that are just going to fail anyways. Surely it made MORE sense to let them fail BEFORE billions were given to them.

But noooooooooo....

The hysterical Left went on and on about all those poor people will be out of work! Well guess what.. Those people are STILL going to be out of work and the taxpayers are out billions of dollars...

The "wisdom" of the Left, laid bare for all to see....

Michale.....

My question is, "so what"?? As long as it's only terrorists who are tortured and as long as it produces intel that saves innocent lives, I am SHOCKED that anyone would have a problem with it..

Granted, the former has not always been the case and that is a shame. But even Obama's National Director of Intelligence has confirmed that torturing terrorists HAS produced actionable intel that HAS saved innocent lives.

Since all but one bailed on the previous iteration of this question, I'll ask it again.

Does ANYONE have a problem with torturing a known and proven terrorist if it will produce actionable intel that will save innocent lives???

It's a very simple question...

The answer is equally simple...

Michale.....