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	<title>Comments on: Friday Talking Points [61] -- Pardon Me?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.chrisweigant.com/2009/01/16/friday-talking-points-61-pardon-me/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.chrisweigant.com/2009/01/16/friday-talking-points-61-pardon-me/</link>
	<description>Reality-based political commentary</description>
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		<title>By: Chris Weigant</title>
		<link>http://www.chrisweigant.com/2009/01/16/friday-talking-points-61-pardon-me/#comment-4348</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Weigant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 21:08:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chrisweigant.com/index.php/2009/01/16/friday-talking-points-61-pardon-me/#comment-4348</guid>
		<description>BashiBazouk -

From memory, I think the last few episodes have Leo McKern (of &quot;Rumpole&quot; fame) as the new Number Two, and are worth seeing for that alone.

-CW</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BashiBazouk -</p>
<p>From memory, I think the last few episodes have Leo McKern (of "Rumpole" fame) as the new Number Two, and are worth seeing for that alone.</p>
<p>-CW</p>
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		<title>By: Osborne Ink</title>
		<link>http://www.chrisweigant.com/2009/01/16/friday-talking-points-61-pardon-me/#comment-4347</link>
		<dc:creator>Osborne Ink</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 18:09:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chrisweigant.com/index.php/2009/01/16/friday-talking-points-61-pardon-me/#comment-4347</guid>
		<description>I am a HUGE fan of The Prisoner, Chris. In fact I blogged on the news of MacGoohan&#039;s death rather substantially at my own website.

Be seeing you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a HUGE fan of The Prisoner, Chris. In fact I blogged on the news of MacGoohan's death rather substantially at my own website.</p>
<p>Be seeing you!</p>
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		<title>By: BashiBazouk</title>
		<link>http://www.chrisweigant.com/2009/01/16/friday-talking-points-61-pardon-me/#comment-4346</link>
		<dc:creator>BashiBazouk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 17:14:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chrisweigant.com/index.php/2009/01/16/friday-talking-points-61-pardon-me/#comment-4346</guid>
		<description>The Prisoner was great and strange. I&#039;ll have to netflix the show some time. I think I never saw the last few episodes and the first only once. I&#039;ve heard the last couple of episodes were strange in in already strange show. The Simpsons did a really good spoof of the Prisoner. The writers were on that day.

LewDan: 

I agree. Also much of the questionable stuff happened before the 2004 election and was suspected and talked about if not proven leading up to that election. As far as I am concerned, a majority of the American people gave George a pass. They have much responsibility there as well.

I think we should find out what happened and why but only to try to prevent it in the future. Not for revenge, as I don&#039;t think that gets us much at this late date.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Prisoner was great and strange. I'll have to netflix the show some time. I think I never saw the last few episodes and the first only once. I've heard the last couple of episodes were strange in in already strange show. The Simpsons did a really good spoof of the Prisoner. The writers were on that day.</p>
<p>LewDan: </p>
<p>I agree. Also much of the questionable stuff happened before the 2004 election and was suspected and talked about if not proven leading up to that election. As far as I am concerned, a majority of the American people gave George a pass. They have much responsibility there as well.</p>
<p>I think we should find out what happened and why but only to try to prevent it in the future. Not for revenge, as I don't think that gets us much at this late date.</p>
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		<title>By: LewDan</title>
		<link>http://www.chrisweigant.com/2009/01/16/friday-talking-points-61-pardon-me/#comment-4345</link>
		<dc:creator>LewDan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:38:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chrisweigant.com/index.php/2009/01/16/friday-talking-points-61-pardon-me/#comment-4345</guid>
		<description>BTW, I loved the fugitive. It wasn&#039;t just surreal. It was the only show to combine a &quot;who done it&quot;, science fiction, spy thriller and present it surreally.

I also think Patrick McGoohan&#039;s &#039;Secret Agent&#039; is second only to Tom Clancy. And I&#039;m doubt Clancy would prevail if limited to black and white and 40 mins.!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW, I loved the fugitive. It wasn't just surreal. It was the only show to combine a "who done it", science fiction, spy thriller and present it surreally.</p>
<p>I also think Patrick McGoohan's 'Secret Agent' is second only to Tom Clancy. And I'm doubt Clancy would prevail if limited to black and white and 40 mins.!</p>
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		<title>By: LewDan</title>
		<link>http://www.chrisweigant.com/2009/01/16/friday-talking-points-61-pardon-me/#comment-4344</link>
		<dc:creator>LewDan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:20:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chrisweigant.com/index.php/2009/01/16/friday-talking-points-61-pardon-me/#comment-4344</guid>
		<description>I have real reservations about H.R.104. While we definitely need a nonpartisan objective investigation, I have major problems on two issues.

First, it initiates and compromises investigations by misdirecting the focus. It isn&#039;t just the Bush administration that needs scrutiny. We suffered a systemic failure of government, all three branches. To truly be useful, any investigations must focus on all three branches of government.

While its true Bush abused executive privilege and national security classifications to conceal activities from both Courts and Congress. Neither branch ever objected nor even acted against the polices which became public. While the Courts did eventually begin to reject some polices Congress ratified and expanded them.

Which brings me to my second reservation. I am against any prosecutions for two reasons. Pragmatically its to late. The Courts and Congress refused to act when the activities could have been stopped, there&#039;s no point in acting now that they&#039;re out of office and power. Secondly, The actions were legal. Unamerican, unethical, unconstitutional, and immoral, I&#039;ll grant you, but legal. If for no other reason than they were promoted by the Executive with the concurrence of Congress and the Courts.

True, none of the legislative norms were followed, but the Constitution doesn&#039;t specify how legislation must be passed. Government makes the rules, and government can change or ignore the rules. All three branches acquiesced, making the polices legal, their current feigned supposed &quot;ignorance&quot; doesn&#039;t cut it, they have no plausible deniability.

Essentially Congress and the Court are hiding behind the facade that Bush failed to follow procedure. But their Constitutional role isn&#039;t clerical. Congress and the Court had enough information to act had they chosen to do so. They didn&#039;t.

And until we&#039;re ready to face and address the failure of Congress and the Court to act, to address their complicity, we&#039;re not going to profit much from examining only what Bush and Cheney did. Nor would any prosecutions be remotely &quot;justice.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have real reservations about H.R.104. While we definitely need a nonpartisan objective investigation, I have major problems on two issues.</p>
<p>First, it initiates and compromises investigations by misdirecting the focus. It isn't just the Bush administration that needs scrutiny. We suffered a systemic failure of government, all three branches. To truly be useful, any investigations must focus on all three branches of government.</p>
<p>While its true Bush abused executive privilege and national security classifications to conceal activities from both Courts and Congress. Neither branch ever objected nor even acted against the polices which became public. While the Courts did eventually begin to reject some polices Congress ratified and expanded them.</p>
<p>Which brings me to my second reservation. I am against any prosecutions for two reasons. Pragmatically its to late. The Courts and Congress refused to act when the activities could have been stopped, there's no point in acting now that they're out of office and power. Secondly, The actions were legal. Unamerican, unethical, unconstitutional, and immoral, I'll grant you, but legal. If for no other reason than they were promoted by the Executive with the concurrence of Congress and the Courts.</p>
<p>True, none of the legislative norms were followed, but the Constitution doesn't specify how legislation must be passed. Government makes the rules, and government can change or ignore the rules. All three branches acquiesced, making the polices legal, their current feigned supposed "ignorance" doesn't cut it, they have no plausible deniability.</p>
<p>Essentially Congress and the Court are hiding behind the facade that Bush failed to follow procedure. But their Constitutional role isn't clerical. Congress and the Court had enough information to act had they chosen to do so. They didn't.</p>
<p>And until we're ready to face and address the failure of Congress and the Court to act, to address their complicity, we're not going to profit much from examining only what Bush and Cheney did. Nor would any prosecutions be remotely "justice."</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Weigant</title>
		<link>http://www.chrisweigant.com/2009/01/16/friday-talking-points-61-pardon-me/#comment-4343</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Weigant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 08:12:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chrisweigant.com/index.php/2009/01/16/friday-talking-points-61-pardon-me/#comment-4343</guid>
		<description>Nobody here&#039;s a fan of &quot;The Prisoner&quot;?  Michale?  

Is it before everyone&#039;s time?

As far as I&#039;m concerned, it was the only &quot;surrealist&quot; television show ever made, and stands for that alone.  It makes &quot;Twin Peaks&quot; look like a normal plotline...

I&#039;ve always sworn to myself that if I ever get interviewed on national TV (stranger things have happened), I will get a &quot;Prisoner&quot; custom-made blazer to appear in.  White piping on all the edges!  Just so that, if asked, I can quote &quot;I am NOT a number!  I am a FREE MAN!&quot; just to convince America that I am, at heart, a geek.

There&#039;s got to be a photo of this somewhere, hang on a minute...

OK, it&#039;s not great, but &lt;a href=&quot;http://danowen.blogspot.com/2008/04/prisoner-12-chimes-of-big-ben.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&#039;s one&lt;/a&gt;.

Seriously, if you ever wanted to see &quot;James Bond meets Salvador Dali&quot; television, check it out...

I just had to say that.

-CW</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nobody here's a fan of "The Prisoner"?  Michale?  </p>
<p>Is it before everyone's time?</p>
<p>As far as I'm concerned, it was the only "surrealist" television show ever made, and stands for that alone.  It makes "Twin Peaks" look like a normal plotline...</p>
<p>I've always sworn to myself that if I ever get interviewed on national TV (stranger things have happened), I will get a "Prisoner" custom-made blazer to appear in.  White piping on all the edges!  Just so that, if asked, I can quote "I am NOT a number!  I am a FREE MAN!" just to convince America that I am, at heart, a geek.</p>
<p>There's got to be a photo of this somewhere, hang on a minute...</p>
<p>OK, it's not great, but <a href="http://danowen.blogspot.com/2008/04/prisoner-12-chimes-of-big-ben.html" rel="nofollow">here's one</a>.</p>
<p>Seriously, if you ever wanted to see "James Bond meets Salvador Dali" television, check it out...</p>
<p>I just had to say that.</p>
<p>-CW</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Weigant</title>
		<link>http://www.chrisweigant.com/2009/01/16/friday-talking-points-61-pardon-me/#comment-4342</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Weigant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 08:04:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chrisweigant.com/index.php/2009/01/16/friday-talking-points-61-pardon-me/#comment-4342</guid>
		<description>Osborne Ink -

Earlier, I saw your first comment, and thought &quot;but what are the 7 stages&quot; so I&#039;m glad to see you followed through!

You may have something there...

-CW</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Osborne Ink -</p>
<p>Earlier, I saw your first comment, and thought "but what are the 7 stages" so I'm glad to see you followed through!</p>
<p>You may have something there...</p>
<p>-CW</p>
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		<title>By: Osborne Ink</title>
		<link>http://www.chrisweigant.com/2009/01/16/friday-talking-points-61-pardon-me/#comment-4340</link>
		<dc:creator>Osborne Ink</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 03:04:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chrisweigant.com/index.php/2009/01/16/friday-talking-points-61-pardon-me/#comment-4340</guid>
		<description>Looked &#039;em up. Here they are. What I mean to say is that it&#039;s as if your talking points were **leading** through the seven stages:

1) Shock - OMG, look at what he&#039;s done!

2) Denial - Bush is in denial, but he did it. The neocons are in denial, but they did it. They have to face up to it.

3) Bargaining - Let&#039;s not just &quot;move on&quot; or change the subject to the latest Brittany Spears fiasco.

4) Guilt - We should hold hearings to discover the truth and name the guilty parties.

5) Anger - There must be hearings so we can all see the villains squirm in the light.

6) Depression - These crimes can&#039;t go unpunished. That&#039;s going to make Bush, Cheney, et al rather depressed. And we&#039;re all going to be depressed when we see how bad the truth is.

7) Acceptance and hope - We have to do better!

I&#039;ve outlined in another blog (a long time ago) how Rovian damage control consists of manipulating the seven stages via spin. Am I off base here, or is there something to this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looked 'em up. Here they are. What I mean to say is that it's as if your talking points were **leading** through the seven stages:</p>
<p>1) Shock - OMG, look at what he's done!</p>
<p>2) Denial - Bush is in denial, but he did it. The neocons are in denial, but they did it. They have to face up to it.</p>
<p>3) Bargaining - Let's not just "move on" or change the subject to the latest Brittany Spears fiasco.</p>
<p>4) Guilt - We should hold hearings to discover the truth and name the guilty parties.</p>
<p>5) Anger - There must be hearings so we can all see the villains squirm in the light.</p>
<p>6) Depression - These crimes can't go unpunished. That's going to make Bush, Cheney, et al rather depressed. And we're all going to be depressed when we see how bad the truth is.</p>
<p>7) Acceptance and hope - We have to do better!</p>
<p>I've outlined in another blog (a long time ago) how Rovian damage control consists of manipulating the seven stages via spin. Am I off base here, or is there something to this?</p>
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		<title>By: Osborne Ink</title>
		<link>http://www.chrisweigant.com/2009/01/16/friday-talking-points-61-pardon-me/#comment-4339</link>
		<dc:creator>Osborne Ink</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 02:51:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chrisweigant.com/index.php/2009/01/16/friday-talking-points-61-pardon-me/#comment-4339</guid>
		<description>Chris,

Have you noticed that your 7 talking points almost track the seven stages of grief?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris,</p>
<p>Have you noticed that your 7 talking points almost track the seven stages of grief?</p>
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		<title>By: fstanley</title>
		<link>http://www.chrisweigant.com/2009/01/16/friday-talking-points-61-pardon-me/#comment-4338</link>
		<dc:creator>fstanley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 01:36:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chrisweigant.com/index.php/2009/01/16/friday-talking-points-61-pardon-me/#comment-4338</guid>
		<description>I have noticed that both the government and the public have a difficult time fixing mistakes, righting wrongs, and seeing justice is done.  There is a tendency to want to move on and forget the past.  This flaw or whatever you want to call it is why Bush became president in the first place!

I am in favor of looking back because if we don&#039;t illuminate the when, where, how and why of things we are doomed to keep making the same mistakes and there will be no justice.

...Stan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have noticed that both the government and the public have a difficult time fixing mistakes, righting wrongs, and seeing justice is done.  There is a tendency to want to move on and forget the past.  This flaw or whatever you want to call it is why Bush became president in the first place!</p>
<p>I am in favor of looking back because if we don't illuminate the when, where, how and why of things we are doomed to keep making the same mistakes and there will be no justice.</p>
<p>...Stan</p>
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