"I don't care one bit about her daughter having a kid at 17 and do not think less of her for doing so. But maybe teaching her about birth control might have had a different outcome? And preventing high schools from teaching about about birth control might produce a higher rate of the same outcome"

Except she, Palin that is, actually supports teaching kids about contraception in schools, just that she also advocates teaching abstinence alongside. It's one of many myths about her conservative values that exist. For example she's not in favour of creationism being added to the curriculum, as was claimed, but thinks schools that WANT to teach it ought to be allowed to do so (and I can see her point; as far as I know American schools don't teach "religious education" like we do in the UK, so there's a place for creationist views to be put alongside evolution in class).

Incidentally I'm in agreement with both of those views (and I'm not in any way shape or form a creationist, I'm an agnostic and strong proponent of evolution). There's nothing wrong with encouraging abstinence, no birth control is foolproof and I don't think kids should think "oh well, I can just have an abortion", not because they shouldn't be able to have abortions, rather because it shouldn't be a "default position" for a teen thinking about whether and when to have sex.

Even if you want to believe "babygate", to state that Palin is an abstinence-only advocate when she's a member of a group that advocates teaching of contraception in schools is just patently incorrect. Her position isn't one of opposition to anything; she's IN FAVOUR of teaching abstinence in schools.

Huge difference.

There were other flaws with the babygate scandal (her water hadn't broken, in fact Trig was induced so they can't have broken; she was leaking fluid, it's in fact entirely possible to leak fluid for DAYS before giving birth. Sometimes the fluid even re-fill themselves!) but I don't really feel the need to go into a great deal of depth about it.

Incidentally her doctor also cleared her to take the flight. I'd trust my doctor, especially if I was feeling fine. Remember, she'd had four kids before, and it is her body; who knows her own body better than her? But still the rumours will persist on certain sites. Ah well, if people want to believe that, in spite of the overwhelming evidence against them, so be it.

For the record Chris, her family were home, her doctor was at home, and it was the same doctor that suggested that if she'd feel more comfortable at home, it was safe for her to fly back. The doctor was also appointed by Mrs Palin as the best family doctor in Alaska, so I don't blame her for trusting the woman implicitly. I guess it doesn't matter much now, as the rumours largely only exist on far-left nutjob blogs, but I thought you, as a guy who seems to pride himself on being well-informed would appreciate the vast amount of information I uncovered while researching the Palin baby story.

Just recently in several columns here, it was being touted that Alaska holds some real possibilities for Democrats.

But now that the GOP VP nominee is the governor of Alaska, all of the sudden it's just another republican state.

Don't get me wrong. Polls are crap and usually have very little meaning.

But considering that this poll was taken long before it had any national relevance, I would say that it has some bearing.

Ignoring all political bigotry, it appears that Palin is a very capable government executive.

Michale....

She has a nearly 80% approval rating in Alaska by Alaskans..

Obviously she is doing SOMETHING right..

Michale.....

4. She is willing to say and do anything to get elected

5. She is a theif and a liar

6. She believe that she is all powerful

7. And if the people of Alaska make enough noise she might get impeached while running for office.

She sounds a lot like Bush.

You raise a good point about the Obama v. Palin thing, as opposed to Obama v. McCain. There is a danger of this, you're right. But the dust may settle on the Palin thing after a few weeks, and most of the Obama v. Palin thing is coming from the media, so we'll see… interesting point, though.

Actually, much of the comparison is coming from Obama himself, in response to McCain's ad...

McCain is playing the tune and Obama is dancing to it, hook line and sinker...

Oh my, I think I mixed my metaphors there.. :D

If Obama keeps dancing like this for a "few weeks" he can kiss the presidency good bye. As arrogant as it sounds, Obama needs to simply deign NOT to engage Palin in ANY kind of comparison. His attitude needs to be that such comparisons are ridiculously beneath him..

The plane ride thing will strike many women as insane - "your water had broken, you gave a speech, then took an 8 hour plane ride and a 1 hour drive BEFORE you went to the hospital?" It goes straight to "judgment".

But here again, it's the issue of someone substituting THEIR judgment about something they know NOTHING about..

If people are TRULY "pro choice" then they HAVE to allow Palin the right of her choice..

To put it another way, if Palin had been a Democrat would we even be HAVING this discussion?? Of course not..

And THAT is the trap that the Democrats are falling into... They are completely reversing their very foundational ideals, SOLELY based on partisan bigotry..

Murtha was in the Keating 5? Wow, I didn't know that. I will check it out. I thought everyone was retired from Congress except McCain, but I could be wrong, not really up on all the details.

Yea, it was widely reported back when the Dems first took control of Congress and Murtha was up for some leadership positions. He has disappeared from the public scene since then, but his complicity in the Keating 5 scandal was well-documented.

That is why I have always counseled to step cautiously when trying to hurl that "egg" at McCain.. Because it might result in collateral damage. As so many politically oriented scandals do these days.

I really don't have any problems with attacking Palin over issues.. But, when you see such "issue" oriented attacks laced with "bimbo" and "barbie doll" and "babe" type adjectives, I am sure ya'all would agree that it's nothing but sexist based attacks.

I won't even BOTHER getting into all the claims and questions of "How can Palin be a mother and a VP" type spewage that is floating around out there.. It's simply despicable, made all the more so by it's wide acceptance in Democrat circles..

@Bashi

Uh…where am I not supporting a womans right to choose? I think you are way off on this one…

When you castigate Palin's choice to take the plane ride. You weren't there. You didn't know the circumstances or the situation. It was HER choice to make.

Yet you feel qualified to question her on that choice.

Would you question Palin's choice if she was the DEM VP nominee?? Of course not. You would be defending it as "HER CHOICE"...

"In other words, the ends justifies the means…"

This is politics. Morality is nice but losing puts you much further from the "end" than questionable means will.

Awesome. I'll probably quote you on that down the road...

Don't get me wrong. I firmly believe as you do.. That the end DOES justify the means..

It's just refreshing to hear someone from the other side of the aisle so boldly state the same philosophy..

I just find it ironic that it's widely accepted amongst Democrats that, to win elections, Democrats must act like Republicans.

So, in other words, it's OK to compromise one's principles to serve the greater good. In this case, winning elections.

We think very much alike, you and I.... :D

Don't worry.. That's NOT an insult, no matter what others may say... :D

Michale.....

You either support a woman's right to choose or you do not. In Palin's case, you appear to NOT support a woman's right to choose..

Uh...where am I not supporting a womans right to choose? I think you are way off on this one...

First term US Senator.

Some > ZERO

In other words, the ends justifies the means…

Yes.

This is politics. Morality is nice but losing puts you much further from the "end" than questionable means will.

Hey, I didn't say YOU couldn't talk about them, just that Dems giving interviews on TV shouldn't! Since (after watching the GOP convention) "lefty bloggers" are now the bete noir of the GOP, I guess that means we have a job to do. So please, feel free!!

(although I have to warn you, the bikini shot is fake, so don't even bother with that one...)

Michale -

See, I just KNEW it was the season for football metaphors to make a comeback!

Heh.

You raise a good point about the Obama v. Palin thing, as opposed to Obama v. McCain. There is a danger of this, you're right. But the dust may settle on the Palin thing after a few weeks, and most of the Obama v. Palin thing is coming from the media, so we'll see... interesting point, though.

BLaws -

That (your 8a) is a good framing job. Well done! The GOP ticket is being sold as "Maverick squared" (I'm not kidding), so attacking the "maverick" pick of Palin is definitely worth the effort. I see it as a petulant and impulsive pick "you won't let me have who I want? well, then I'm going to pick someone you don't want!!" -- but it's important to point out that it is a total suck-up to the religious right as well, which was supposed to be a big part of McCain's "maverick" image to begin with.

Michale -

The Palin pick was definitely a reaction to the hard right denying McCain who he wanted - Joe Lieberman. They threatened a floor fight during the roll call for veep, and warned him that this would LOSE him the election. McCain never likes being forced to do things, and usually lashes out as a result, hence Palin. This isn't rumor, it's been reported by many right-leaning pundits who talk to GOP bigwigs. In other words, if it's a rumor, it's coming from the right, not the left. I can dig up a link to one of these articles if you'd like, or try googling "Lieberman" "floor fight" and "McCain" for the past week or so.

Stan -

Exactly what I've been saying! Rash and hasty doesn't exactly fill me with confidence about the ability to make good decisions as pres.

BashiBazouk -

"I don't think these issues should be addressed by the official campaigns but left to the press and blogs."

I agree, especially about the plane ride, but I agree with this comment 100%. This is one of those things that you just have to get the facts out there for people to decide on their own, and they will have the same questions we do.

That plane ride just makes no sense.

Michale -

The plane ride thing will strike many women as insane - "your water had broken, you gave a speech, then took an 8 hour plane ride and a 1 hour drive BEFORE you went to the hospital?" It goes straight to "judgment".

Murtha was in the Keating 5? Wow, I didn't know that. I will check it out. I thought everyone was retired from Congress except McCain, but I could be wrong, not really up on all the details.

akadjian -

See baby comment above to BashiBazouk -- feel free!

"The maverick has left the building." -- wow, that's a good slogan! Would make a dandy bumpersticker!

Michale -

Actually, from what I've seen so far (and astonishly enough), some of the mainstream media appears to be doing their job (somewhat) on Palin, and instead of (or, more like, in addition to) the baby stories, some of the facts about how Palin governs are getting out there.

They focus on odd things, but the "Bridge To Nowhere" story is getting a good solid look, as she obviously lied about being an "earmark buster" in her first speech. She was for it before she was against it, and SHE TOOK THE MONEY is actually getting reported on. Also, she hired a lobbyist to get earmarks for her town when she was mayor. So for once, some actual factual issues are being discussed in the MSM. These are core issues for how she is being presented to the public, and should be presented by the media. For once, they seem to be doing so. CBS especially, last night.

Yeah right -

3. She lowered taxes on property owners, which helps the well-off, and raised them on sales taxes, which hurts the poor worse. It's a valid issue, but it probably won't wash because taxes in AK are very strange. The state is almost full-on socialist, since it gets most of its money from oil taxes. With the price of oil at record highs, the state has been awash in money since Palin became gov.

4. Yeah, and Hawaii has a good argument about why it should become an independent kingdom again, too, but it ain't going to happen. The whole point is that it is shocking for the GOP voter to hear some of their anti-American slogans. The founder of the party refused to be buried in America, and was buried in Canada instead. "Alaska first" and all that. How will that go over with the uber-patriot crowd, do you think?

5. Yeah, the people on the island are REALLY annoyed at the term "bridge to nowhere" because, by definition, that makes them "nowhere"! I'd be annoyed too! I still think the whole point is not that she was for it before she was against it, but that SHE TOOK THE MONEY ANYWAY!

6. Which guy? She's fired so many for political reasons, it's hard to keep track. A new one even surfaced after I wrote this.

7. "...if she had continued on her current path as governor she would have been fired, impeached, or jailed." Hey, there's still time! :-)

I love the photo too. I even ran it Tuesday as well.

BashiBazouk -

Dirt works. But that's why God created 527s. Heh.

Michale -

I think the valid point in the baby thing is that Palin is against abortion in the case of rape or incest. Also, go see this article (use link at bottom) at HuffPost, there's an interesting comment about the language used by Palin in her statement by a poster called "echothebat." It's about whether Palin would let others even HAVE the choice they just made, not who chose what.

OK, this may have been the longest comment ever posted here, but I've been falling behind on replying to you guys, for which I apologize. Can't wait for the televised debates in a few weeks, that's all I've got to say!

Thanks to all for commenting, as always.

-CW

I would invite a comparison between what Obama stands for and what John McCain stands for. It's John McCain who seems to be afraid of this comparison.

This is why his campaign has focused primarily on the negatives surrounding Obama - his so-called "celebrity" and his supposed "foreignness."

They have tried to make it about personality and not policy. Why? Because if the debate is about policy, I believe most Americans agree more with Obama's views.

So that would be my challenge to McCain. Let's keep this about what each would do for the country. Let's keep the pettiness out of the debate.

You love putting words in to peoples mouths they did not speak.

No, I love pointing out how people's beliefs can be just so much hypocrisy..

Pro-choice people love to spout about how it's a woman's right to choose, etc etc... Right up until the time that the woman is someone who has different beliefs or the woman makes a choice they don't like.

You either support a woman's right to choose or you do not. In Palin's case, you appear to NOT support a woman's right to choose..

Funny, I was under the impression he is a sitting US Senator…

First term US Senator. He is still trying to remember where the bathrooms are..

But I've seen too many democrats take the high road and be rewarded by not becoming president. Dirt works

So, once again, we see the attitude put forth that Democrats must act like Republicans to win elections.

On the other hand if the Rove trained team gets as dirty as the Bush campaign, give him both barrels and take no prisoners!

In other words, the ends justifies the means...

If Democrats must act like Republicans to win elections, what could a logical and rational person deduce from that?

It tells me that the American voters prefer Republicans to Democrats.

Are you sure that THAT is the message you want to stand by??

Michale....

You love putting words in to peoples mouths they did not speak.

So, you are saying that others should pass judgment on a woman's body? That it's not HER judgment that should prevail?

Actually it's about airline regulations, health of the baby and ego. But go on with your fantasy...

Again, interpreting what you are saying, if a parent believes in "abstaining" from murder and tries to instill that abstinence in their children and "fails" because one of their children goes out and commits murder, then it's "fair game" to attack said parent and said child?

Attack? Funny I don't remember writing the word attack. could you point it out?

Mention the effectiveness of a questionable governmental policy within her own family, hell yes. I don't care one bit about her daughter having a kid at 17 and do not think less of her for doing so. But maybe teaching her about birth control might have had a different outcome? And preventing high schools from teaching about about birth control might produce a higher rate of the same outcome?

So, you agree that Obama WAS given a pass on his lack of experience.

No, I said he was given a pass on his level of experience. You seem to think it is a "lack", not me.

Whether it's 1 person or 1 billion people, the simple fact is, Obama has ZERO experience in Washington.

Funny, I was under the impression he is a sitting US Senator...

As for the dirty side of the campaign, that's a tough one. It should stay clean as long as possible. But I've seen too many democrats take the high road and be rewarded by not becoming president. Dirt works. Let McCain set the tone. If he stays mildly dirty, then keep it clean and cast him in a bad light. On the other hand if the Rove trained team gets as dirty as the Bush campaign, give him both barrels and take no prisoners!

2. McCain doesn't want a commander and cheif in the making he wants a vice-president that appeals the the masses. HEALTH ISSUES, OLDER IN AGE

3. The raise overall lowered taxes and was saw as a good thing. OBAMA has some of the same ideas.

4. Yes they want a vote. They want a vote because they never had the choice. The country was bought from Russia by America. However, Alaska has many transplants. AIP reads more like a libertarian party than one seeking independance. Many democrates fight on issue of imminent domain, the right to home school children, and the ability to elect judges and other officials.

5. Well I don't like people saying it was a bridge to nowhere. People live there it just cost more than what those people could afford. Take the Bay bridge for example. Caifornian's were just waiting for another disater because they did not want to pay for it but they did have the money. The fact that Palin took the money and didn't build the bridge is a sham. I want my bridge to nowhere. I WANT MY BRIDGE TO NOWHERE.

6. Hey the guy didn't do his job so he got fired.

7. Cut and run Palin never thought in a million years that she would be consider as vice president. Furthermore, if she had continued on her current path as governor she would have been fired, impeached, or jailed.

8. This hell marry pass with all of it sideshows and specticals is just what McCain needs. If we are so busy talking about someone who is not ever going to be president how can we talk about the person who might just be. I really like the way Karl Rove thinks.

By the way I love that picture.

I wasn't sure if I hit the SUBMIT button or not and my post is just being held in queue...

Excerpts from the Democratic Offensive Response Committee(DORC)

Scene: In a windowless conference room, a group of pale, somewhat glum men and women sit around a large table. Inspirational sayings from Barack Obama are posted on the walls, including the profound, “We are the ones we’ve been waiting for,” the upbeat “Change we can believe in,” and the always popular, “Keep on truckin.'"


n older gentleman sifts through some loose papers spilling out of a file marked “Palin.” He absentmindedly pushes the papers around while speaking:

Spencer warms to the subject. “Then she’s a bad American with poor family values. Brilliant. Let’s get the talking points printed up and sent off to the New York Times, they’re standing by.”

The Democrats talked a good game about change and a new political landscape leading up to the general election. What a load of crap. They’re aggravated that the race is almost a dead heat, irritated that they didn’t get a bigger bump from the Democratic Coronation party in Denver and really surly that the Republicans put a young woman on the ticket. From the Democrats perspective, the Republicans are peeing on their traditional territory. Palin’s husband is even a union member, dammit.

Reprinted from a Mike Baker commentary...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,415441,00.html

The problem I see with that avenue of approach is that, when Senator Obama & the Democrats invite the American public to take a really good look at John McCain, they run the very real risk of the American public LIKING what they see...

I know, I know..

As a Democrat, it's incomprehensible to you that political virgin Joe Q Public might actually LIKE what they see in McCain.

But it's the independents and middle of the road'ers (like me) that Obama must appeal to. And inviting those middle of the road'ers to look at the "real" John McCain may backfire.

an obvious concession to the Christian wing of the party.

Obviously.. :D

Maybe it was a pick designed to do exactly what it's doing. Completely exposing the Democrats for the hypocrites that they are..

Of course, that could just be a fortunate (for the GOP) by product of the pick..

Michale.....

One of the most interesting things I've found in this story is that the McCain campaign seemed to forget that the election is not about John McCain. They've tried to make it an up-or-down vote against Obama with McCain a "lesser of two evils."

If they had followed this strategy, they would have picked a VP who wouldn't have generated much media coverage. Someone like Rob Portman. Lieberman or Ridge would both have generated a lot of coverage.

Coverage of any kind was the last thing McCain wanted.

I bring this up though not to critique Palin's selection, but to bring up a possible strategy for Obama. It basically comes down to, the more people know John McCain, the less likely they are to vote for him.

This is why I believe Obama should, while emphasizing his own policies, ask the American people to compare with John McCain. For example: "The McCain campaign seems to talk more about me than they do about what McCain would do for America. Why is that? What are they trying to hide?"

If people look at McCain and see what he is actually about, he looks an awful lot like George Bush. And he never looked more like George Bush than when he picked Sarah Palin, an obvious concession to the Christian wing of the party.

The maverick has left the building.

Hmmmmmmmm

So, you are saying that others should pass judgment on a woman's body? That it's not HER judgment that should prevail?

Interesting....

So seeing how these policies are working in her own family are definitely fair game IMO.

Again, interpreting what you are saying, if a parent believes in "abstaining" from murder and tries to instill that abstinence in their children and "fails" because one of their children goes out and commits murder, then it's "fair game" to attack said parent and said child?

I am going to have to go with Senator Obama on this one. He said that families are "off limits". Especially a candidates children.. I am with Senator Obama on that.

When experience is framed, I think it should be pointed out that 20 million people gave Obama a pass on his experience. One person gave Palin a pass on her's.

So, you agree that Obama WAS given a pass on his lack of experience.

Whether it's 1 person or 1 billion people, the simple fact is, Obama has ZERO experience in Washington.

That is EXACTLY what makes him an attractive candidate to me. He is not contaminated by politics. Neither is Palin, to a lesser extent by virtue of the remoteness of her governorship.

But, facts must be faced. When it comes to the type of experience needed to be President, Palin has more than Obama. And, if Obama can claim that growing up in Indonesia counts for "foreign policy" experience, then Palin can surely claim that governing a state that borders Canada AND Russia counts for a LOT more foreign policy experience.

That the democratic process should make these decisions much in the same way that a majority of republicans gave McCain a pass on his involvement in the Keating 5.

You mean the same way the majority of Democrats gave John Murtha a pass on HIS involvement in the Keating 5???

Don't get me wrong. I am still planning to vote Obama. I still think he will make the best President.

But, I call them as I see them.

And going out of bounds to personally attack Palin and her children is the biggest mistake the Democrats are making. Having Obama run against Palin is the SECOND biggest mistake the Democrats are making.

Michale.....

Umm...humor? Coffee before internet?

Actually I think both the babygates should be looked at. If true, her flying from Texas to Alaska then driving to her home town all the while in the early stages of labor is a serious lack of judgment. Period.

Palin has stated not only is she against abortion to an extreme degree but also against sex-ed that includes curriculum on birth control. Instead prefers the teaching of abstinence-only. These are policies she has stated she will vote for her side and against the other side and will fund her side and not fund the other side as governor of Alaska. So seeing how these policies are working in her own family are definitely fair game IMO.

I don't think these issues should be addressed by the official campaigns but left to the press and blogs.

When experience is framed, I think it should be pointed out that 20 million people gave Obama a pass on his experience. One person gave Palin a pass on her's. That the democratic process should make these decisions much in the same way that a majority of republicans gave McCain a pass on his involvement in the Keating 5.

...Stan

But the far radical right proved they hold the reigns over McCain.

Is this your opinion?? Or do you have facts to back it up?

It seems to me that Palin enhances McCain's "maverick" streak, as she has been known to go after GOP'ers who have gone bad, just as McCain has done...

Personally, I would have liked to have seen a Joe Leiberman, just to see Dems go purple with apoplexy.

But, switching over to baseball, the Palin pick has thrown a different kind of curve to the Dems. And they aren't fielding it well at all..

Michale.....

John McCain wanted either Joe Lieberman or Tom Ridge. Both men are highly qualified for the VP position and would be strong candidates to stand up to Joe Biden based on record and experience. He was set on Joe Lieberman just days before his pick of Palin. But the far radical right proved they hold the reigns over McCain.

People like Rush, Hannity, and Dobson vetoed the pick of Lieberman (or Ridge) and demanded a far right conservative. McCain buckled under, showed his shoot from the hip reactionary side, and gave in to the extreme far right with his choice of an unqualified pick to satisfy the far right of his party.

Aw man, no baby (hers and her daughters), no beauty queen, no small towner, and the true crusher, no VPILF?

Just what are we supposed to talk about her then?

Ummmm.... Issues??

Just a thought..

@CW

Glad to see you don't jump down into the gutter like so many Dems are doing these days.. If anyone ever needed confirmation that, when it comes to hypocrisy, hatred, bigotry and pure vile bile (that rhymes and you know it!!)that there really isn't any difference between Dems and Republicans, then the rabid personal attacks from the Dems on Palin and her family would surely prove that beyond any doubt...

I do have to give credit where credit is due, however. Senator Obama, being his usual classy self, has stated in no uncertain terms that such personal and family attacks are completely off limits and are totally un-called for. It's too bad that the vast majority of Democrats can't show even an iota of class that Senator Obama has shown.

But I do have to point out one thing that I think Obama is doing wrong.. He and his campaign are falling all over themselves to make the case that he has more experience than Palin.. Personally, I don't think it's true, but that is neither here nor there...

The point is, Obama is falling over himself to try and make the case that he is more qualified to be President than Palin is to be VICE PRESIDENT.

Get that?? Obama is running against Palin right now. And that is a VERY stupid move on Obama's part. I don't recall an election EVER where the POTUS candidate tried to make the case that he is more qualified for POTUS than the VPOTUS candidate is for VPOTUS.

Obama should continue to speak out against the ruthless and tasteless attacks. Beyond that, he should ignore Palin. Any comparison between Obama & Palin MADE BY OBAMA only will serve to emphasis McCain's experience over Obama.

I don't view this as a HAIL MARY by the GOP.. It's a tactically brilliant move, made all the more brilliant by the fact that the GOP doesn't have to do anything. They can just sit back and let the Democrats eviscerate their own campaign.

It's more of a "Fake Punt" on fourth down (as Del Rio and the Jags are wont to do)that gives the ball to Fred Taylor to get some first down yardage.

And it's working perfectly..

Michale.....

Just what are we supposed to talk about her then?