That's what happens when the people demand and get "full disclosure"…
~~~~~

So it's the people's fault that the President's 'for profit' third party intelligence system isn't as professional as say, Valerie Plame?

At least it's not political hacks leaking sensitive information to the main stream media. Or is it?

That's what happens when the people demand and get "full disclosure"...

Michale.....

>I just asked a hypothetical question.

Oh.. I see.. So if someone asked a "hypothetical" question about a family member of yours in a disgusting and perverted situation, you would be perfectly OK with that??

I won't bother to because I really don't like wallowing in the gutter that you, apparently, like to wallow in...

Grow up son and show a little maturity, K???

>I could hazard a guess, but
>I'm trying to be civil.

As with everything else... You failed...

@PlacitasRoy

>nothing I read indicated there had
>been a vote to invite us in.

Psychotic dictators rarely allow votes that are contrary to their wishes..

Surely, you don't admit that it was perfectly OK to leave a psychotic pervert such as Saddam Hussein in power...

Where is your compassion???

>Just like EVERYONE knew Saddam had WMD's.

It's a documented FACT that Saddam possessed WMDs.. He even used them on his own people..

Again I ask you.. Where is your compassion??

>O, I forgot, Britain's military was so
>overextended they couldn't dare invade France

You are confusing capability with desirability...

Oh wait.. I guess you are saying that "might makes right"... :^/

@Benskull

>michale, do you go on any righty sites?
>and if so which ones? just a question.

I got banned from most of the "righty" sites... I am too liberal for their tastes...

Chew on that...

Michale.....

"In short, EVERYONE knows that Iran has a hand in the Iraqi insurgency.." Just like EVERYONE knew Saddam had WMD's. What an illogical conclusion! I don't know that. I do know that has been the Reich-wing talking points for some months now.

BUT, let's for a short moment assume they have been invited in by the insurgents trying to take over their government. Using that tortured logic, Britain should have invaded France because the U.S. insurgents were getting aid from France. O, I forgot, Britain's military was so overextended they couldn't dare invade France.

I really don't give a rat's ass what you THINK your question was about. The simple fact is, you dragged my daughter into a discussion where it wasn't appropriate to do so. You COULD be mature about it and simply apologize. Or you could bluster and be all childish about things..

Apparently you choose the latter..
~~~~~

I just asked a hypothetical question. If you choose to let that ruin your day, that's a shame, I'm honestly trying to be civil. Don't feel bad if I don't let it ruin my day.

~~~~~
Like I said, I wonder how *I* get the "arrogance" label around here…
~~~~~

I could hazard a guess, but I'm trying to be civil.

Have a nice day.

>Since I'm the one who asked the
>original question about your
>daughter, I'm quite confident that
>I know what the question was about.

I really don't give a rat's ass what you THINK your question was about. The simple fact is, you dragged my daughter into a discussion where it wasn't appropriate to do so. You COULD be mature about it and simply apologize. Or you could bluster and be all childish about things..

Apparently you choose the latter..

>Nobody's buying it … well, you I guess.

Me, the Democrats in Congress, the Republicans in Congress, Bush, the entire Bush administration, the media...

In short, EVERYONE knows that Iran has a hand in the Iraqi insurgency..

Even shorter, the WHOLE world is wrong and YOU are right...

Like I said, I wonder how *I* get the "arrogance" label around here...

I guess it's just more of your anti-USA attitude peeking thru...

Michale....

If it were truly established that Iranian forces are attacking Americans, we'd be in an overt war with Iran, rather than the covert one being waged by the MEK on our behalf. Bush is using every trick in the book to try and provoke them into something he can prove, as well as every trick in the book to prove things he wishes were true. Nobody's buying it ... well, you I guess.

>The point of it being your daughter
>is not meant to be a personal attack,
>but it is meant to make you think about
>the circumstances of her debilitation
>in a personal manner.

Perhaps.. But, the original discussion was in regards to my daughter's own actions and the results of those action.. In her words, it's her own damn fault. That denigrated into her being of "innocent bystander" status which wasn't the issue of the original discussion. Therefore, I felt that bringing the family members into such discussions were outside of the scope of good taste..

>So is Saudi Arabia attacking Americans?

No, Saudi citizens are attacking Americans. But Saudia Arabia is not..

It's been established that Iranian armed forces ARE attacking Americans and they are doing so at the direction of the Iranian chain of command...

There is quite a difference between a country's citizens choosing to make attacks on US Armed Forces and a country's GOVERNMENT choosing to make attacks on US Armed Forces.

Wouldn't you agree??

>I don't trust them, and I don't
>know many people who do.

So, come Nov 2008, fire them...

@PlacitasRoy

We are there at the behest of the legitimately elected Iraqi government.. Ergo, the insurgents are fighting against that government.

>The police are not illegally
>occupying the neighborhood.

And the US is not illegally occupying Iraq..

It's THAT simple...

Michale......

-spermwhale

So who has the higher moral ground - those who are trying to expel occupiers from their country, those who are retaliating against those supporting the occupiers, the occupiers, those seeking revenge against those who have brutalized them, foreigners who are supporting those who they see as fighting a common enemy, those just settling old scores?

“Who is to say what is "necessary" and what is "unnecessary"??

WHO DOES? The occupiers or the occupied? The ‘might make right’ bunch or the ‘I’ll get you out of my country by any means necessary’ bunch? The ‘my god is better than your god’ bunch or the ‘my god is better than your god’ bunch? The 'we want you oil' bunch or the 'you can't steal it' bunch?

There are several problems with the 'police force' analogy. The police are not illegally occupying the neighborhood. Police have a legal right to be in the neighborhood. In the vast majority of instances the ‘victims’ support the police. Even in the most egregious circumstances, there is an appearance of legality.

You are aware that 60% of all foreign soldiers killing Americans in Iraq are from Saudi Arabia, right? In fact, %72 of the 9-11 hijackers and Osama bin Laden himself are from Saudi Arabia.

So is Saudi Arabia attacking Americans?

As for the sense of the senate, they blew their credibility right along with Bush. I don't trust them, and I don't know many people who do.

To demote her from 'your daughter' to 'a daughter' doesn't change the circumstances, outcome, or necessity, it only changes the answer to the question, "who cares".

A lot of people don't care if someone else's daughter becomes a collateral damage statistic, But that doesn't mean no-one cares, or that no-one should care.

Who is to say what is necessary and what is unnecessary? Each of us.

Sure hope my family gets back safe and soon.

HR 1585
SEC. 1538. SENSE OF SENATE ON IRAN.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c110:5:./temp/~c110MeGEWb:e1052536:

Michale

But let's leave my family out of things, K??

Why not go with "a daughter" instead of "your daughter"...

As to your questions, they are simply too ludicrous and moronic to address.

Michale.....

No, I think Michale's point was that if a police department guns down everyone in his (her?) neighborhood to catch the "bad guy's", he (she?) would be all for it because "the end justifies the means".

It's a sick mentality... but hey... this is the mentality that found itself a President to cherish.

If she were just riding her bike, where's the necessity that her life should be altered forever?

It's important to note that ALL humans are family to someone.

~~~~~

While "the end justifies the means" has gotten a bad rap, the simple fact is that SOMETIMES, it's a valid argument..

~~~~~
So you're saying that if your daughter's life is destroyed so that drug dealers can have free access to your streets, you support that necessity.

It's the "unnecessary" that I have a problem with..

Who is to say what is "necessary" and what is "unnecessary"??

And, once again, since you put immediate family members in the crosshairs, all logic goes out the window..

While "the end justifies the means" has gotten a bad rap, the simple fact is that SOMETIMES, it's a valid argument..

Michale.....

@PlacitasRoy

>I assume the Iraqi family who
>loses a loved one to a raodside
>or plane dropped bomb, or
>indiscrimiate or yatgetted
>gunfire feels the same hatred
>toward the Americans, insurgents,
>or terrorist.

Most likely..

But just because two different actions produce the same results (loved ones dying) doesn't make the actions that produced the same results are the same..
~~~~~

If I understand ...

Let's say your daughter is permanently disabled by a stray bullet from a firefight between police and drug dealers.

Ballistics tests identify the shooter. Will you feel better if it turns out it was a police bullet, or a dealer's bullet? Will your daughter feel better one way or the other?

I think the point is that unnecessary casualties can't be weighed in terms good guys and bad guys. They're simply tragic.

>I assume the Iraqi family who
>loses a loved one to a raodside
>or plane dropped bomb, or
>indiscrimiate or yatgetted
>gunfire feels the same hatred
>toward the Americans, insurgents,
>or terrorist.

Most likely..

But just because two different actions produce the same results (loved ones dying) doesn't make the actions that produced the same results are the same..

Michale.....

Love your cartoons!

I'm having the same problems with huff. I tried Michales link as well with the same results.

If you figure it out, let us know ... it's a stumper.

Keep up the pixel carvings!

@PlacitasRoy

Loved the link, there's some true war heroes, true Americans, I salute them. The only thing that seemed odd was when the article mentioned that 'moonbounces mushroom every weekend', had to google to find out what a moonbounce was.

Good find!

When accessing a new article with firewalls on, adblocking on, tight scripting restrictions on, I can view all pages of comments normally. I'll try alerting Huffpo and see if they have any suggestions.

[....]We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture," said Henry Kolm, 90, an MIT physicist who had been assigned to play chess in Germany with Hitler's deputy, Rudolf Hess...
Several of the veterans, all men in their 80s and 90s, denounced the controversial techniques. And when the time came for them to accept honors from the Army's Freedom Team Salute, one veteran refused, citing his opposition to the war in Iraq and procedures that have been used at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.

"I feel like the military is using us to say, 'We did spooky stuff then, so it's okay to do it now,' " said Arno Mayer, 81, a professor of European history at Princeton University.

When Peter Weiss, 82, went up to receive his award, he commandeered the microphone and gave his piece.

"I am deeply honored to be here, but I want to make it clear that my presence here is not in support of the current war," [....]

Torture is not an American value.

Leahy should have a simple 4 word statement: No Documents, No confirmations.

"the simple fact is you cannot compare military on military actions to those of terrorist actions" I assume the Iraqi family who loses a loved one to a raodside or plane dropped bomb, or indiscrimiate or yatgetted gunfire feels the same hatred toward the Americans, insurgents, or terrorist.

@LindaR - "That is one HELLUVA great idea…" I concur. In fact if I didn't want to be labled an idiot I'd say "Dittos."

@CW

>Not so sure about "DemoStuds" though.
>What would Nancy Pelosi say? Heh heh.

For some reason, I am picturing Demi Moore in GI JANE screaming, "SUCK MY D*CK!!!" ;D

Dunno why....

Michale.....

HuffPost has been constantly upgrading their comment-handling software. For instance, they now appear "newest first" instead of "newest last" in the list now. Because of this, sometimes the comments have problems for a few hours or a day or so. Reload the page, it'll probably show the comments.

LindaR -

"DemoDuds" is kinda catchy! Not so sure about "DemoStuds" though. What would Nancy Pelosi say? Heh heh.

Michale -

Yeah, but to win the Cave-In award of the week, it'd have to be RECENT stuff, so your list probably isn't going to work.

And you're right, that column set a high-water mark for comments on HuffPost for me. One of my slogan contests came close, but didn't beat the Torture column.

Thanks to all for commenting!

-CW

That is one HELLUVA great idea...

Kudos...

@CW

If you need any help for the DemoDud, lemme know!! :D I've made a list and checked it twice...

@CDub

>Too bad Huffpo archives don't
>give access to the whole comment record.

Not sure what link you are looking at..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-weigant/so-is-torturing-a-daughte_b_29538.html

That link gives access to the commentary and all 174 comments which (If memory serves) was a record for Chris... :D

As to the rest of your post, once again, you are tying to apply military battlefield issues to terrorism...

In essence, you are George W Bush trying to fit the Square Peg (Military vs Military issues) into the Round Hole (Terrorism and CT ops).. (Like the reference, Mr Cunningham?? :D )

If it don't fit, forcing it ain't gonna make it fit..

Michale.....

DemoDuds and DemoStuds.

You could feature the DemoDud of the week -- but balance it with the DemoStud of the week. And this is not meant in a sexist way! There was one day several years ago when Barbara Lee was the only stud in all of Congress.

But anyway, one common argument used in defense of torture is that it saves lives, but this is actually backwards, it costs lives, and extends wars.

When enemies are under fire and they know that if they are captured, they'll be tortured, they are going to fight to the death. On the other hand, if they know they'll be taken care of and treated fairly, they'd probably be more inclined to surrender and sit out the rest of the war where they can get some medical attention and steady meals.

We'd have a lot more surrenders and a lot less hatred brewing around the world.

Michale.....

(Michale -- I linked to the HuffPost version of this article, and not the archived one here, JUST so people could see these comments. Saves you from having to type it all out again... you're welcome...)

Heh heh.

-CW

Has it really been over a year!???

You simply cannot compare the laws governing military on military action to actions taken against terrorists...

It's apples and alligators...

Now, if you want to phrase the debate fairly and properly, then (again as I said back then) you have to ask, "If your son/daughter was performing terrorist acts in another country, would you want him or her to be tortured"...

My answer would be, (as it was back then) that, when it comes to family, all rational discussion goes out the window...

Logically and rationally, I would LIKE to think that if my son/daughter had become a terrorist, I would have the courage to accept the fact that he/she went into this willingly and deserves everything that is coming to her/him..

But, realistically, I know that, when it comes to immediate family, such "armchair analysis" goes out the window...

Having said all of the afore, the simple fact is you cannot compare military on military actions to those of terrorist actions. It's been established that the Geneva Conventions On Treatment of Prisoners do not apply to terrorists..

On another note, I hope everyone caught last Tuesday's episode of THE UNIT, as it dealt with just this subject matter... Also, if you want to catch just a small glimpse of the reality of CT ops, that show is closer to reality than anything out there in la-la land..

Michale.....